2 Places at Once

[D-Roc]

I think the show has now proven that time is not linear - that is, within the confines of the show itself.

What I found amazing was the idea that time-travel allows you to exist in two places at once - or should I say, two perceptions of time at once, since technically the conscious of Desmond (and Minkowski) was alternating between point/s in the past and as well as the present (or future-present, if you will).

We saw that neither Des nor Minkowski were able to control their time-hopping experiences (I'll refrain from calling them 'abilities' for now since a distanct lack of control was apparent in both of them) however with the aid of Faraday, Des was able to learn enough to understand that a "constant" would anchor him in one place in time (i.e the present). What I found amazing was the idea that they were able to flick in and out of their pasts, and alter their present through a 'combination' of going about their past differently (i.e. Des contacting Penny and giving her vital info as to the call he was going to make in the future-present) and by establishing contact with their constant in the future-present. Of course Minkowksi was unable to do this, but Desmond's actions are simply jaw-dropping for any time-theorist/enthusiast.

Why? Because not only did he do the above but if we look at this on a deeper level, we can see that he 'replanted' (or rather implanted) new memory into his current self by taking future knowledge and understanding into his past consciousness.

Yes, "you can't change the future" (according to Faraday), but you can alter the past in order to 'create' a 'different' future via a 'new' past. As seen when Des was walking away from Penny's house with the sensation of an optimistic future washing over him (i.e. the knowledge that he and Pen would speak on Christmas Eve 2004).

Which begs the question - did Des know he would go to the island? No - because like Faraday he "forgot" - the "new memory" is happening in 'real-time' and over-wrote the old memory pathway. The only time when Des was consciously living in 2 places (or times) at once was the moment he gained his "constant", and even then it was more a sensation (new memory), than anything.

Incidentally, I'm now even more excited by the prospect of Ben being able to do a similar thing - only on a more controlled level - after all, it would explain how he is always two-steps ahead (although the fact that he has fake passports and currency, slightly negates this idea, perhaps, as it gives his 'movements' a more tangible reality)

Not saying i'm 100% right, but I wanted to get my current thoughts recorded. Feel free to add and update your own interpretations if you want.

[TheDharmaShark]

Now this explanation I get. Is this what you tried to explain to me in the other thread JB?

So, as a result of what you said there Rocco, would people like Penny unconsciously acknowledge these changes? Or am I talking rubbish yet again?

[D-Roc]

I would think that Penny would consciously acknowledge the alteration Desmond made to her life, because she didn't change her number and she waited for him - crucially, she remembers their conversation which future Desmond 'implanted' into her when he came to her house and begged her not to change her number etc.

For me, this is proof that Desmond's time-travelling implants new experiences into the lives of those her encounters, whilst 'past-Desmond's' memory has been wiped over with 'new memory'. The suggestion could be that past Desmond is not aware of what is to come, but experiences some 'sensation' - some call it "destiny", and this could well explain why the Des who meets Jack in the football stadium seems to have a sense of purpose and a sense of 'knowing' without 'actually' (consciously) knowing..if you get me?

I think that crucially the key aspect of all this is 'perception', and the perception of time. I have a theory that you can affect others through time-travel, but you can only perceive to affect yourself, since one cannot have two independant minds in two places in time at once, but you CAN have one unconscious mind and one conscious mind.

Is this what 'destiny' is made of..the sense of having to do something..of being 'supposed' to do something?

Quite possibly..

(just my interpretation, could be wrong)

[D-Roc]

I just want to make a note of some further clarification that i'm trying to establish within my head:

As I further understand:

A "constant" (an anchor, something familiar) is needed to 'understand' (or interpret) the perception.

This could be seen with Des when he had no recollection of where he was (yet interestingly he remembered his name )..interaction with his "constant" (Penny) allowed him to plant the perception of 'new memory' into his past and anchor himself into the present (or the present-future, if you will).

Yeah, I think that makes sense - again, I could be wrong.

[JB Sawyer]

For me the Constant basically enabled the mind to create some sort of relationship between the two time zones. It let Des create a sort of anchor (as you say Roc) in both the past and the present. Before this his concious mind was only able to focus on the past time zone, it could not make the connection between the two and therefore he didn't know anything that was going on in the present. Having a Constant, Penny, enabled him to recognise the present and give his conscious mind a way to recognise the two tenses, as Penny was in both of them. It is only by recognising the two time tenses that he's in that Desmond's conscious mind can establish itself. Eloise's and Minkowski's minds couldn't do this as they didn't have a Constant, an anchor that could help them establish their conscious mind in the present. Once your mind can establish itself in the present then it prevents itself from imploding ala Eloise and Minkowski.

Therefore once you have a Constant, the mind can stop switching as it has established itself.

That's how I see it anyway

[*SP*]

So obviously we've seen so many of all the characters overlapping in flashbacks before. So I guess this is so that they'll be maybe be able to have a constant if this affects them.

Is this what Jack's problem was in the flash-forward in the S3 finale? Kate maybe using Jack as her constant, thus preventing him from 'going back'. Maybe Jack wants to anchor himself back somewhere else...the Island?...but Kate has found her anchor in the future, perhaps with Aaron.

I'm fascinated by all this but still struggling to get to grips with so much of it. Why does it come so easy to Roco and JB...

[TheDharmaShark]

I'm getting there with, I'm just trying to find an explanation of what Des actually did when he became unstuck in time.

One question though, was this an altered version of that past?

[The_abbott]

Faraday said you can't change time. But you can bend perception no doubt!

[Matt Gogi]

Originally Posted by Roco

you can alter the past in order to 'create' a 'different' future via a 'new' past

Heh, I said something like that in another thread somewhere, so yeah I agree with that bit...

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by The_abbott

Faraday said you can't change time. But you can bend perception no doubt!

Completely agree Perception is key, imo

Originally Posted by Matt Gogi

Heh, I said something like that in another thread somewhere, so yeah I agree with that bit...

Yeah, although I would perhaps like to adjust it so that it reads:

you can adjust the past in order to 'create' a 'different' future perception via a 'newly' perceived past.

In other words it relates to the conscious perception of time and memory. Sometimes memory is a feeling..a sensation. Some might call it 'destiny' :Hmm:

[lost-lover]

I totally agree with this. I believe that Ben may already have knowledge of the time travel situation, if not Desmond's own experience it's possible he heard of Brendon or Minkowsiki (sorry for mistakes with the names) having had a similar experience through his spy on the boat.
One question which stays in my mind is whether or not the Others and/or Dharma folk suffered similar "side effects" (to use Daniel's phrase) when they first arrived on the island? :hmmm:

[lalaland]

so did des remember everything at the end and know where he was? i know he said to penny he had been on an island but he still seemed unsure of sayids name or was that just him adjusting?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by lalaland

so did des remember everything at the end and know where he was? i know he said to penny he had been on an island but he still seemed unsure of sayids name or was that just him adjusting?

I think the assumption is that he did remember everything. I perceived it differenty - I thought he seemed very sure of who Sayid was, and that this moment indicated as much

I do agree that he was still re-adjusting moments after however, as a look of doubt (worry?) crept over his face.

[D-Roc]

After rewatching the episode, my brain came to this conclusion:

(Island) Perception (of time) is BEHIND consciousness

I guess this is much as I've been saying for the past few weeks, but this seems to demystify the idea better in my head. Not sure what to do with this, although I wanted to note it down so I keep my bearings