Eggtown: Villain of The Week

[haelle03]

I think Locke should of been here, but I voted for Jack, like I have every week since these polls started.

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

Ok this is obviously Biased, no Locke which is ridiculous as his leadership skills are crap, and lets not forget the fact that he's torturing miles. But instead of getting into a big argument whether or not Locke's a villain, I'm just gonna say, IMO, This is extremelyyyyy Bias and I'm not even going to bother voting!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

Ok this is obviously Biased, no Locke which is ridiculous as his leadership skills are crap, and lets not forget the fact that he's torturing miles. But instead of getting into a big argument whether or not Locke's a villain, I'm just gonna say, IMO, This is extremelyyyyy Bias and I'm not even going to bother voting!

I'm sorry you think that way ILWL, but I can assure you that it's not biased. You say his leadership skills are "crap", but are they really? From what I can tell the Losties are living it up in O-town with wine, beds and heating, whilst Jack's people sweat it out on the beach (and get lost in worm holes - *elaboration*) - I know where I'd rather be

Give Locke more time to prove his credentials, he's only been leader for 3 days - how long has Jack had? 100-odd days?

Let's not forget my reasoning for choosing Jack - he swore on the Holy Bible and LIED! Sorry, but for me that is wrong. And Kate, well, you know.. As for Miles I think that he can't be very bad off if his only concern is blackmailing a man for oodles of dollars - whats more he indicated that he was more than prepared to execute Charlotte if necessary - sorry, but Ben was vilified for shooting the girl, so surely Miles has to be vilified for being willing to murder his 'friend'.

Oh, and I see in the other thread that you would have picked KATE as your 'hero of the week'!!? - Before we start crying 'biased', I think THAT says it all! lol

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Oh, and I see in the other thread that you would have picked KATE as your 'hero of the week'!!? - Before we start crying 'biased', I think THAT says it all! lol

To be fair, I considered Kate (FF) as a potential Hero. Although obviously we don't know the full story behind her aquiring of Aaron. Assuming she is raising him as part of a request or promise to Claire, yes - I would think that rather heroic, at the least noble...

She also did her best to keep Aaron out of the case - on two occasions - even though it would have aided her in court (letting her mother see him and using him as a character witness/sympathy vote.)

I realize this is in the incorrect thread. But since it was brought up...

Also, I must highlight the fact I choose on-island Kate as the villain of the week. I may have been the only one, but I saw a distinct difference between the two Kates...

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I'm sorry you think that way ILWL, but I can assure you that it's not biased. You say his leadership skills are "crap", but are they really? From what I can tell the Losties are living it up in O-town with wine, beds and heating, whilst Jack's people sweat it out on the beach (and get lost in worm holes - *elaboration*) - I know where I'd rather be

What has there enviroment got to do with Lockes leadership? You could have the worlds worst leader in Locke's position, but they would still get the food and the wine, that doesnt make him a good leader. How he treats his people determines if he is cut out for leadership status.

Give Locke more time to prove his credentials, he's only been leader for 3 days - how long has Jack had? 100-odd days?

I know he's only been doing it for 3 days, and i will see if he can prove himself as a good leader, but for the time being His skills are terrible, especially compared to Jack's first 3 days. Jack had just been through a major traumitic experience, but still risked his own life trying to get the black box from the cockpit during the first night. The moment that he landed on the island, he revived Rose, and saved other people's lives, ignoring his own wounds. These are great examples of honoury leadership skills, as he put other peoples lives and needs before his own injuries. All that weve seen locke doing is stating he doesnt run a democracy like Jack, and throwing grenades into peoples mouths. Not very leaderish if you ask me.

Let's not forget my reasoning for choosing Jack - he swore on the Holy Bible and LIED! Sorry, but for me that is wrong.

I'm not disagreeing with that, Ive said that he shouldnt be in heroes (which i find peculiar as youve made a point of him swearing on the people, just plain wrong.)

Kate, well, you know..

.... No i dont??

As for Miles I think that he can't be very bad off if his only concern is blackmailing a man for oodles of dollars - whats more he indicated that he was more than prepared to execute Charlotte if necessary - sorry, but Ben was vilified for shooting the girl, so surely Miles has to be vilified for being willing to murder his 'friend'.

Ben isnt vilified for shooting Charlotte, we dont know her motives or what she was even going to do with ben.

More to the point, if you think miles should be up there for blackmail, and jack should be up there for lieing, why isn't locke up there for torture?? If you dont agree with the term torture, fine, mental torture.

Oh, and I see in the other thread that you would have picked KATE as your 'hero of the week'!!? - Before we start crying 'biased', I think THAT says it all! lol

As E Pluribus Unum has stated, We dont know Kate's motives for having Aaron, is she not heroic for at least giving him a good life. She stated that she wasn't good with children, so why would she care so much for Aaron? She puts him before men, and showed genuine care and emotion towards him. She didn't use him in the court case to try and help her case. Plus character wise, she showed alot of hatred towards Jack's lie, which shows that she's sorry for leaving the rest of the survivors behind. I believe they are much more justified than the heroic reasons in the other thread, Imo.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

To be fair, I considered Kate (FF) as a potential Hero. Although obviously we don't know the full story behind her aquiring of Aaron. Assuming she is raising him as part of a request or promise to Claire, yes - I would think that rather heroic, at the least noble...

She also did her best to keep Aaron out of the case - on two occasions - even though it would have aided her in court (letting her mother see him and using him as a character witness/sympathy vote.)

I realize this is in the incorrect thread. But since it was brought up...

..and you and ILWL are both Kate fans..see, only a Kate fan or advocate could possibly nominate her for 'hero of the week', in this week of all weeks! It basically equates to me doing something like nominating Locke to 'hero of the week' after this episode - which I didn't, i might add.

My point was that ILWL is calling 'me' biased, yet clearly this doesn't make sense seeing as he (and you, it would appear) believe that Kate was a hero in Eggtown..Eggtown, of all episodes...I think not

I could understand you not wanting her to be villain of the week, but to suggest that she is 'heroic' is simply worse than any potential bias I am deemed to be showing. She is Aaron's mom, and..we don't know the details behind that - we can't simply 'assume' Kate is being selfless. You might also note that I didn't place Kate as a villain because of this - my reasons for placing her as villain are related to her allowing Jack to lie on the Bible for her, not accepting responsibility for her crimes, using Sawyer, Using Miles, Endangering her fellows by releasing Miles for a completly selfish reason, blaming her mom for dobbing her in (when it was her who executed her partner)..need I go on?

So, to clarify - you would agree with ILWL's claim for Kate being heroic on the mere 'assumption' that she is doing good in relation to Claire/Aaron...whilst also overlooking al of the BAD that she did in this episode - including the FF..?

..and I'm the one who's biased? At least I didn't label Locke a 'hero', kinda thing

If i'm going to be called biased I would like for the hecklers to check themselves first..I mean, Eggtown Kate..Hero of the week? Whaaaaaa?? Honestly EPU, ILWL deserved to rot in his own hypocrisy for this one

But as they say, it's a game of opinions..I just can't believe i'm being called biased when Kate fans are suggesting Kate was a Hero last week.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

What has there enviroment got to do with Lockes leadership? You could have the worlds worst leader in Locke's position, but they would still get the food and the wine, that doesnt make him a good leader. How he treats his people determines if he is cut out for leadership status.

Um, because it was Locke's decision to go to the Barracks..they wouldn't be living it up in a safe and pleasant environment if it wasn't for Locke. They are ALL there because of Locke and his leadership.

Locke treats people fine - if they respect him and his rules then he's the nicest bloke..and that's how it should be..one has to earn respect.

Kate deserved to get spoken to like that - she endangered everyone and did it all for her own selfish reasons - people like that are not welcome under Locke's community - it's his gig, not Kates..who is clearly only there for her own ends. Just ask Ford

I know he's only been doing it for 3 days, and i will see if he can prove himself as a good leader, but for the time being His skills are terrible, especially compared to Jack's first 3 days. Jack had just been through a major traumitic experience, but still risked his own life trying to get the black box from the cockpit during the first night. The moment that he landed on the island, he revived Rose, and saved other people's lives, ignoring his own wounds. These are great examples of honoury leadership skills, as he put other peoples lives and needs before his own injuries. All that weve seen locke doing is stating he doesnt run a democracy like Jack, and throwing grenades into peoples mouths. Not very leaderish if you ask me.

But you're not comparing like for like - it was easy for Jack to lead in his first 3 days..things were broken and he was naturally suited to fixing them. We're now 100 odd days into this thing, and Locke is rising to leader - a totally different proposition in far more murkier and unpredictable times. Let's take any other 3 day period from Jack's rule and 9 times out of 10 you'll find that he's cocked it up - from disbelieving Claire re: Ethan, to making that call, to refusing to give Sawyer medication, to assisting in the torture of Sawyer, to refusing to treat Locke's head wound...need I go on? Jack is good when he's saving people, but equally he picks and chooses who he saves. He's a terrible leader who's gift is also his curse.

Why are you using plural, when Locke *inserted* (not "threw") one grenade in one persons mouth Also, Jack doesn't run any kind of Democracy - the difference is that Locke is able to admit it.

Ben isnt vilified for shooting Charlotte, we dont know her motives or what she was even going to do with ben.

Ben was well and truly hammered after he shot Charlotte..

More to the point, if you think miles should be up there for blackmail, and jack should be up there for lieing, why isn't locke up there for torture?? If you dont agree with the term torture, fine, mental torture.

I've explained this dude..see the first and subsequent posts I sincerely believe that the multiple offenses of the other people are worse than Locke's one offense in sticking a grenade in Miles' mouth - let's not forget that this is Miles' mouth and not another person - the same Miles who found it dandy to blackmail Ben..the same Miles who is "exactly where I want to be", the same Miles who deserves to be punished for what he did. He's not exactly the sort of person I feel sorry for, considering his earlier arrogance..

As E Pluribus Unum has stated, We dont know Kate's motives for having Aaron, is she not heroic for at least giving him a good life.

No! Cos we don't know her motives, LOL!! You're assuming that it's for some good reasons, but we simply do not know and I'm not happy to parade her as a "hero" on the basis of this large assumption. How is 'assuming' she's being selfless equate to her being 'heroic', when there are other characters who are clearly being more heroic with no assumption needed? I truly do not get this logic, ILWL..especially when you're calling me biased over Locke, lol

She stated that she wasn't good with children, so why would she care so much for Aaron? She puts him before men, and showed genuine care and emotion towards him. She didn't use him in the court case to try and help her case. Plus character wise, she showed alot of hatred towards Jack's lie, which shows that she's sorry for leaving the rest of the survivors behind. I believe they are much more justified than the heroic reasons in the other thread, Imo.

Holy crumbs, I sincerely do not get this - so you say she was angry over Jack lying for her, yet..YET she still allowed him to lie and didn't come clean herself..and to completely negate your point, she goes on to berrate her mother for not wanting to out right lie for her! So why is it not okay-ish for Jack to lie for her, yet totally fine for Diane to lie for her - do the two not cancel one another out??

I think you have Kate-tinted glasses on ILWL () - cos none of that is heroic..oh, and let's not forget all the bad things she did in this eppy..yet you're happy to point out Locke's one indiscretion and cite this as enough to make him a villain? Whaaa??

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

No! Cos we don't know her motives, LOL!! You're assuming that it's for some good reasons, but we simply do not know and I'm not happy to parade her as a "hero" on the basis of this large assumption. How is 'assuming' she's being selfless equate to her being 'heroic', when there are other characters who are clearly being more heroic with no assumption needed? I truly do not get this logic, ILWL..especially when you're calling me biased over Locke, lol

I dont really want to get involved in this, but i cant help but notice that ilwl is only taking the same stance with kate as you did with ben for most of season 2 and 3

[KatesFate]

I dont want to get in the middle of this either, but speaking our opinion is sort of the reason we are all here, so here goes....

I didn't vote either. I just didn't think any of them were all that villianous to be honest. I don't agree that Jack should of been on there. I did find that kind of comical. The reasoning even more so. Thats a theological debate I don't even want to get into. Quite frankly, I dont think anyone in this epi could be considered villianous, which is why I didnt vote.

I did, however, think that Locke acted out of control in this episode. I have always been a Locke fan. Actually, I'm a fan of each character in a different way, but I will admit to being partial to certain ones. This episode changed the way that I feel about Locke though. When he told the other Losties that if they wanted to live they should come with him, I would like to think that most of them would have said no had they known before hand that Locke had rules that when broken, would result in them being banished. Lockes "Anybody is welcome to come" attitude sure has changed alot recently. At the moment, Ben is right. Locke has no idea what to do next. Locke's main problem right now is that he has no idea how to take the initiative. He does not know how to lead unless he is being guided, therefore, he is also a sheep. A good leader would have never let Ben see (or hear) that he had gotten inside of his head. It shows weakness.

That said, I still love the character Locke. I just wish that he would stop letting Ben push his buttons and learn to keep his cool a little better.

[The_abbott]

FRom what we know abot Kates past, I think its safe to say she had motives to steal Aaron. The glance at the camera at the end made her look sinister and so far all the FF's have shown lives in downfall so I can't see Kate being a hero now or ever!

[E Pluribus Unum]

lol OK. Firstly, to clarify, I aint particularily a Kate fan (an Eva fan, yes.. but Kate as a character has very few redeeming features. I only stand up for her because I feel she - as in Eva - comes under unfair 'bashing'.)

Originally Posted by D-Roc

my reasons for placing her as villain are related to her allowing Jack to lie on the Bible for her, not accepting responsibility for her crimes, using Sawyer, Using Miles, Endangering her fellows by releasing Miles for a completly selfish reason, blaming her mom for dobbing her in (when it was her who executed her partner)..need I go on?

Excuse moi? She didn't allow Jack to lie for her at all. If you remember that scene, her lawyer says something along the lines of "I'm sorry I had to do this" and then Jack comes in. He then starts to lie and - again, going off memory - Kate stops Jack from continuing! She did accept responsibility for her crimes - or least she was willing to - she did not accept the blackmailing attempt by her mother (I understand the counter argument that Kate should allow her mother to see Aaron anyways, as a dieing wish - but under the circimstances: "Let me see my grand son or I'll send you down!" I think Kate had every right to deny access, if only on principle!) Your other examples are all 'on-island' Kate. And as I said, I saw a distinct difference between the on-island and flashforward Kate.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

So, to clarify - you would agree with ILWL's claim for Kate being heroic on the mere 'assumption' that she is doing good in relation to Claire/Aaron...whilst also overlooking al of the BAD that she did in this episode - including the FF..?

Yes, to be honest I never even considered that she may have stolen Aaron until I came onto this board. I think we're supposed to view FF Kate as someone who has changed, the "I'm not going anywhere, I have a son" in my opinion was very 'un-Kate'; always running and gunning. I don't think current on island Kate would firstly steal a child (she doesn't seem mothery?) and finally decide to raise him, given the choice. In my opinion, the assumption is that she did something horrid to Claire or kidnapped Aaron. But each to their won. I'm not ruling it out, of course.. I would just find it 'unfitting' in the general tone of the episode

I think there's a distinct difference between both FF and on-island Kate to warrent both claims. But, like you say later, that's all due to opinion..

Originally Posted by D-Roc

..and I'm the one who's biased? At least I didn't label Locke a 'hero', kinda thing

If i'm going to be called biased I would like for the hecklers to check themselves first..I mean, Eggtown Kate..Hero of the week? Whaaaaaa?? Honestly EPU, ILWL deserved to rot in his own hypocrisy for this one

But as they say, it's a game of opinions..I just can't believe i'm being called biased when Kate fans are suggesting Kate was a Hero last week.

Well, that's lovely lol But I'm not arguing that point. Merely the point that there was enough of a difference between FF and on-island Kate to warrent potentially two perspectives. And I never said you were being biased, nor am I a Kate fan so I'll presume that was aimed at ILWL

(Abbs, she's done some unforgivable things in her past. But I don't see how any of them would point toward Kate wanting to steal children?? lol)