Destruction of Locke & Sawyer

[JB Sawyer]

Now I can't speak much for Locke (due to the fact that I physically need to vomit whenever he comes on screen) but I've heard many people say that they feel that TPTB are somewhat damaging Locke, particularly in 4x04. I've just read a comment from Ki (one of the biggest Locke-dillusionists ) that said they were changing the character of Locke to the negative; what with his evidential breakdown and the ease at which he is being manipulated by Ben. This is in stark contrast to the typical Locke that we saw in Through The Looking Glass and The Beginning of the End. I don't know if it's just Ki who holds this opinion, but it would seem that the Locke character is suffering from some very negative writing at the moment.

However my main concern here is the nigh on destruction of Sawyer in Eggtown. I'm sure the writers thought "What can we do to reduce the Sawyer character to shreds". For me they took everything that I loved about Sawyer (not in a man-love way) and tried to make it implode just like the Swan. They had him acknowledge but then accept that he was going to be used. Would the Sawyer of Confidence Man have done that? Most certainly not imo. Would the Sawyer of Confidence Man have acknowledged that Kate would go back to Jack and then come running back to him, and happily accept that fact? I highly doubt it. They had Sawyer act as the high school teenager with Kate coming round to "go study". The scene where she came to Sawyer/Hurley house was sickening to watch as a Sawyer fan. I've been a Sawyer fan ever since Confidence Man and to see him reduced to a high school sweetheart quite frankly makes me want to cry. However the opening porch scene with Kate and Claire nearly did make me cry, and this scene for me emphasised the bombs that TPTB had out for Sawyer in this episode. It was so far away from what we know to be Sawyer, the Confidence Man Sawyer, the Long Con Sawyer, all made way to this sick portrayal of an 18 year old jock. The Sawyer that I have been a fan of for years disappeared in that scene and was replaced by something that I really didn't like. The only saving grace for Sawyer in this episode was the slap - good to see that TPTB didn't forget Sawyer's constant beatings seeing that Ben had taken over that role. There was some emblem of Sawyer there.

OK rant over

[Kiowa Warrior]

Yeah I do think that Locke and Sawyers' characters suffered quite a bit this episode, and the writers were just sloppy with what they made them say.

With regards to the great great Great! () Locke, he just seemed lost this episode...at the start of the series he gave off the impression that he is definately a force to be reckoned with, what with the establishment of Team Locke and the confident way he led everyone through the jungle. Then he realised that Jacob's Hut wasn't where he thought, Ben mocked him and he lost it at Hurley. Why didn't he just ask Hurley where he saw the hut?

We've seen plenty of times that Locke is very open when it comes to people having dreams or visions and him not being afraid to question them or act on the information (that early chat with Jack in S1 about Jack following something he claimed couldn't be there (Christinan), Eko's visions of Yemi) and he's never been one to judge others on what they see, especially given all the things he's seen - the plane, Walt, Jacob - so maybe he's just jealous that Hurley saw the hut as well? But if Locke really is that desperate to be told what to do next - as has been drummed into us this episode - I just don't understand why he hasn't talked to Hurley about it yet.

Locke also doesn't seem to be as people friendly as he once was...possibly it's the strain of leadership and no further instructions coming his way, but he just seems...meaner than he was...and in my view he's not like that.

And I have no idea what the writers were on when they made him tell Kate that his way of leading wasn't a democracy like Jack's way, since that's just rubbish! Locke himself even acknowledged the fact that he leads in a more democratic way when he was organising the trek to The Pearl...he allowed anyone to come if they wanted 'because he's not Jack.' The only thing that comment served to do was make Locke look mean and Jack look good. Writer bias I say! The real Locke would never say that, because we've seen no evidence that he believes that. I could so easily go onto (another) Jack rant now, but I won't!

It's one thing to keep drilling in the fact that Locke needs guidance and being told what to do, but I think it's far more damaging for his character to keep allowing him to be manipulated and wound up by Ben...it shows that he's either regressed or hasn't moved forward at all. But I've still got hope that he will!

And Sawyer's character was also pretty shaky this episode: I mean how many more times are they going to allow him to let Kate use him like that? I would have thought that after Locke used him to kill Cooper he'd be done with people using him for their own ends...

[The_other_other]

Well we know that the sawyer of confidence man isnt the real sawyer, so maybe he hasnt changed. Also hes been used by kate so many times he probably doesnt think it matters anymore

[Reed]

Characters are not one dimensional and neither are people. People change back and forward as human beings. I love Sawyer, but Sawyer as ANY human being will go back and forth as a person because if he stuck to being one dimensional it would be hugely unrealistic. Sawyer changed in S2 and further more in S3, never to be fully the person he was in S1. Sawyer was very one dimensional in S1, by choice.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by The_other_other

Well we know that the sawyer of confidence man isnt the real sawyer, so maybe he hasnt changed. Also hes been used by kate so many times he probably doesnt think it matters anymore

I'm sorry? The Sawyer of Confidence Man is the Sawyer we've had for 3 seasons. It was the Sawyer that in 4x01 said he was doing what he'd always done - surviving. The Sawyer of Confidence Man is the man plagued by problems, the man that hates himself. We know that is Sawyer. If you try to deny that the 'real Sawyer' isn't the Sawyer that hates himself TOO your quite frankly a fool. The Long Con Sawyer was still the Confidence Man Sawyer, which was still the Everyman for Himself Sawyer, which was still the Beginning of the End Sawyer. That is the real Sawyer TOO. The Sawyer that hangs out on porches and lets himself be used for Kate's every whim is not the real Sawyer, and I don't really know how you can suggest so. Yes there is a good man beneath the exterior, but the real Sawyer is one that never wants that exterior to be shown. That's what makes Sawyer a brilliant character. Are you actually trying to suggest that the real Sawyer is the box wine drinking, porch flirting Sawyer? Because if that's so, I worry for you TOO.

And thanks Ki Obviously I can't really comment on Locke *spits*, for obvious reasons However I'm glad to see that you understand where I'm coming from; and even through my hate for the man I can understand you're lack of appreciation for what the writers are putting your long term favourite character through.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Reed

Characters are not one dimensional and neither are people. People change back and forward as human beings. I love Sawyer, but Sawyer as ANY human being will go back and forth as a person because if he stuck to being one dimensional it would be hugely unrealistic. Sawyer changed in S2 and further more in S3, never to be fully the person he was in S1. Sawyer was very one dimensional in S1, by choice.

But Reed you don't understand what I'm saying. The Sawyer of the past 3 seasons is a man that deep down hates himself. This always plagues him. He became the man he hated and throughout the entire 3 seasons it's come through at some point. Yes he can have his nice moments and he can have his dark moments, but at the end of the day there is always that hate behind it. As such, the hate defines who he is as a man and as a character. To say otherwise shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the character. Yes Sawyer can go back and forth between dimensions, and yes he has changed in some ways from S1 to S3, but he always remembered who he really was. When he's flirting on porch door steps, like an American jock teenager, it loses everything that he was previously associated with. That hidden sadness and seriousness, that even when having fun with Hurley and Jin, has always been there, has always affected him. He's a complex guy. When he's playing the American jock, and willing accepting being used and for it to happen again, what he used to stand for throughout the entire saga of Lost, is..well...lost.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

But Reed you don't understand what I'm saying. The Sawyer of the past 3 seasons is a man that deep down hates himself. This always plagues him. He became the man he hated and throughout the entire 3 seasons it's come through at some point. Yes he can have his nice moments and he can have his dark moments, but at the end of the day there is always that hate behind it. As such, the hate defines who he is as a man and as a character. To say otherwise shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the character. Yes Sawyer can go back and forth between dimensions, and yes he has changed in some ways from S1 to S3, but he always remembered who he really was. When he's flirting on porch door steps, like an American jock teenager, it loses everything that he was previously associated with. That hidden sadness and seriousness, that even when having fun with Hurley and Jin, has always been there, has always affected him. He's a complex guy. When he's playing the American jock, and willing accepting being used and for it to happen again, what he used to stand for throughout the entire saga of Lost, is..well...lost.

But Sawyer has shown S4 characteristics pre-S4, showing friendliness and kindness amongst other positive traits. It has imo been a progressional movement in character.

Even as far back as S2 he was having his hair cut by Kate on the beach, showing non-Sawyer characteristics, while showing some warmness toward Hurley whom made a nice gesture.

Point being he has gradually shown less aggression as the typical Sawyer, and in the episode with with Hurley, Jin and Charlie; Sawyer showed no sign of his former self. His S4 self has not been a FAR cry from his past self imo. Though I do sympathise with what you are saying.

But I think Sawyer cannot be THE Sawyer forever because the times and cirumstances have changed. But that is not to say all is lost. I just think he has let go of past-anger through Cooper, his love for Kate, acceptance in the group and rescue.

[JB Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Reed

But Sawyer has shown S4 characteristics pre-S4, showing friendliness and kindness amongst other positive traits. It has imo been a progressional movement in character.

Even as far back as S2 he was having his hair cut by Kate on the beach, showing non-Sawyer characteristics, while showing some warmness toward Hurley whom made a nice gesture.

Point being he has gradually shown less aggression as the typical Sawyer, and in the episode with with Hurley, Jin and Charlie; Sawyer showed no sign of his former self. His S4 self has not been a FAR cry from his past self imo. Though I do sympathise with what you are saying.

But I think Sawyer cannot be THE Sawyer forever because the times and cirumstances have changed. But that is not to say all is lost. I just think he has let go of past-anger through Cooper, his love for Kate, acceptance in the group and rescue.

But I'm not talking about whether he is being nice or not. When he was having his hair cut on the beach, it was a moment of normality, certainly more than niceness in my opinion, but it was a one off. It was also well handled by the writers as he tries to insult Hugo but it is laughed off. At least there is an attempt there where Sawyer acknowledges he can be nice, but there's something inside that won't let him. I'm not talking about being nice ir kind because yes Sawyer has had these moments. One that will always stay in the memory is his talk with Karl; that was brilliant Sawyer being nice, yet knowing there's something more deeper than the surface. It was very well handled by the writers and very well suited to the Sawyer character. Ditto with him offering to help Hurley through Charlie's death in 4x01. It is not a case of whether he's being nice or not. For we know he can be nice if he wants to be. But whenever he does something nice, it is usually something nice within his usual character. He may not have been outwardly aggressive around Jin and Hurley in Tricia Tanaka, but that was a nice little episode in keeping in tune with his character. He did occassionally snap, if you don't remember any occassion where he shows signs of S1 Sawyer I urge you to watch the episode again. He also had that sad underlying feeling within him alot of the time and this comes out when he sits on the beach and simply picks up a beer, the emotion that pours out of those 7 seconds of TV tells wonders for Sawyer. Sawyer conversing and flirting on a porch with Claire and Kate, and not so much the fact he was doing it but the way it was written and portrayed on film, holds no relevance to the character. Watch that scene agin, you will see it's not about being nice, because we know Sawyer can be nice, it's in sticking to the very nature of Sawyer and that scene simply doesn't do it. It tries to make something of a Sawyer that quite frankly sickens me.

Reed I have been a die-hard Sawyer fan ever since Series One. He has and always will be my favourite character. For me personally this is too much of a knock to everything the character embodies and represents.

[Toby]

Oh its there alright. Its brewing. I think the sheriff is just playing the waiting game, and when the moments right, he'll pull the biggest con of all.

We've come this far, do not lose faith in the writers. They know where they are going, they always have done.

[The_other_other]

Originally Posted by JB Sawyer

I'm sorry? The Sawyer of Confidence Man is the Sawyer we've had for 3 seasons. It was the Sawyer that in 4x01 said he was doing what he'd always done - surviving. The Sawyer of Confidence Man is the man plagued by problems, the man that hates himself. We know that is Sawyer. If you try to deny that the 'real Sawyer' isn't the Sawyer that hates himself TOO your quite frankly a fool. The Long Con Sawyer was still the Confidence Man Sawyer, which was still the Everyman for Himself Sawyer, which was still the Beginning of the End Sawyer. That is the real Sawyer TOO. The Sawyer that hangs out on porches and lets himself be used for Kate's every whim is not the real Sawyer, and I don't really know how you can suggest so. Yes there is a good man beneath the exterior, but the real Sawyer is one that never wants that exterior to be shown. That's what makes Sawyer a brilliant character. Are you actually trying to suggest that the real Sawyer is the box wine drinking, porch flirting Sawyer? Because if that's so, I worry for you TOO.

And thanks Ki Obviously I can't really comment on Locke *spits*, for obvious reasons However I'm glad to see that you understand where I'm coming from; and even through my hate for the man I can understand you're lack of appreciation for what the writers are putting your long term favourite character through.

Oh sorry. I misunderstood you. I was reffering to the sawyer who deliberately portrays himself as the villain, and basically tries to make himself as unlikeable as possible. That sawyer is a front, a personality he has developed of his own accord. Thats who i meant when i said its not the real sawyer, and yes your right about the real sawyer being one who hates himself. Sorry for the confusion man.

Maybe sawyer likes being used by kate because he thinks he deserves it? I.e: more self-punishment? I know what your view of sawyer is, but personally i cant help but feel underneath hes kinda weak-willed. I dont think he knows where he is going anymore. Particularly now coopers dead. I wouldnt say hes particularly bothered about 'surviving' anymore. Just my opinion.

edit: thinking back to that scene on the porch though.. your right it was very unsawyer like. Its a shame the writers do this with characters sometimes, but its pretty unavoidable im afraid. I felt the same with Eko and the black smoke. You just have to move on and trust in the writers. They created sawyer after all.

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Originally Posted by Toby

Oh its there alright. Its brewing. I think the sheriff is just playing the waiting game, and when the moments right, he'll pull the biggest con of all.

We've come this far, do not lose faith in the writers. They know where they are going, they always have done.

Agreed!