Official 4.03 Episode Discussion Thread

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I'd imagine he has to kill them because he wants to live in order to continue his good work - it's ok for James to "survive" but not Ben?

I don't think it's okay for anyone to 'survive' by making other people suffer unnecessarily. Perhaps these people are directly threatening Ben's life or the lives of innocent people, but I want to know why incarceration and generally more lawful solutions aren't on the table before I really come to a conclusion about it, to be honest. And I kind of want Ben to be incapable of smiling, because being forced to kill should drive a decent person to despair. Right now, it looks grim.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

I would imagine Ben is critising Sayid for having a troubled conscience because he's made previous mistakes which have cost him, the island and his friends dear. Ben warned them all, but seemingly they did not listen - Ben probably wants to ensure that Sayid doesn't repeat history.

Maybe, but I'm never going to find that degree of coldness anything other than unattractive. The only thing, in my opinion, that rendered Sayid sympathetic in that episode was his ability to hate himself for what he was doing and to feel emotions such as guilt and pain. He'd retained a fragment of his humanity. Ben, on the other hand, was cold, calculating, critical of decent feeling and full of a sense of self-justification because he was only killing 'bad' people. Or people he thought were bad ... as other people consider him. It just shouldn't be so easy.

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Remind me of Jack's plans - which ones are you referring to, I genuinely don't know as he's committed so many atrocities over the seasons.

Attacking the raiding party who came to the beach to kidnap all the survivor's women and to kill anyone who stood in their way. That was murder designed to protect his own people's freedom and lives, exactly as you say Ben's doing now ....

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murg

I don't think it's okay for anyone to 'survive' by making other people suffer unnecessarily. Perhaps these people are directly threatening Ben's life or the lives of innocent people, but I want to know why incarceration and generally more lawful solutions aren't on the table before I really come to a conclusion about it, to be honest. And I kind of want Ben to be incapable of smiling, because being forced to kill should drive a decent person to despair. Right now, it looks grim.

But would Charlotte's death have been 'unnecessary'? I'm not so sure, I think that from Ben's present standpoint he needed to take action. He was a prisoner himself, bound and bloody - had he not been subject to this incarceration he may have been able to seek more diplomatic solutions. As it happened he was at the mercy of a band of brutes who took pleasure in dragging him around like a dog and beating him into pulp fiction. I think Ben had to think ahead and (try to) despatch "Red" as soon as possible.

Well Sawyer is still allowed to smile, and his latest victims blood is still fresh on his knuckles - why can Sawyer smile and Jack wink, but not Ben?

Originally Posted by Murg

Maybe, but I'm never going to find that degree of coldness anything other than unattractive. The only thing, in my opinion, that rendered Sayid sympathetic in that episode was his ability to hate himself for what he was doing and to feel emotions such as guilt and pain. He'd retained a fragment of his humanity. Ben, on the other hand, was cold, calculating, critical of decent feeling and full of a sense of self-justification because he was only killing 'bad' people. Or people he thought were bad ... as other people consider him. It just shouldn't be so easy.

But was Sayid really that apologetic for what he had done to Elsa? I thought he was more at pain for whatever mistake he had made (the one Ben chastised him for)..

I don't see how Ben could be labeled "cold and calculating" when we only saw about 5 seconds of him right at the end of the episode? Whatsmore, someone has to pull the strings to help Sayid redeem himself - surely if Sayid is working for Ben, then this vindicates Ben. Otherwise, isn't Sayid a bit of a hypocrite?

As for the island story, Ben was only calculating in spotting a window of opportunity. He's a forward thinker and when your life is on the line (Sawyer kept threatening to execute him, afterall) I think it's logical that you would try to despatch one last enemy of the island before they get you, or before they destroy the island (or whatever their true agenda is). Pretty self-sacrificing, it could be argued (seeing as he must have known that eitherway Sawyer was going to try to murder him).

Originally Posted by Murg

Attacking the raiding party who came to the beach to kidnap all the survivor's women and to kill anyone who stood in their way. That was murder designed to protect his own people's freedom and lives, exactly as you say Ben's doing now ....

I don't see it that way - Jack had 'options'. If they were getting rescued why not just flee? They were not tied to a rope and being beaten down by Rousseau and Sawyer types - Jack should have simple legged it and got his rescue on. Even Sayid in this very episode chastised Jack for his lack of diplomacy..Sayid said that, of all people! Surely this indicates the displicable nature of Jack's plot? Ben on the other hand (as mentioned above) was on his own (all his people dead, well, most of them) and his life was under 'direct' threat from James and Rousseau. He saw an opportunity and specifically took out that threat - had he wanted he could have despatched a bullet in Sawyer, but he refrained because he only does what is necessary..no less, no more. Basically, he's economical

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Writers:
Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz

Director:
Jack Bender

Episode Centric:
Sayid Jarrah

Interesting that this episode was written by Kitsis and Horowitz. You might remember that they wrote Expose. I think this would be their second Lost episode (that they've been credited for).

Like 3.14, this certainly had a different feel to it. Didn't feel like a 'Darlton' eppy, for example.

[hezhez]

hey my first ever post on this site. Not sure if this is the correct thread for this theory but i deff think that kate's=" he'll be wondering where i am" (last ep s3) I think the "He" is ben, now we know he's off the island, if he can get sayid to work for him, then whats to say that he cant get kate to hook up with him?!!! I mean she did sneak away to the airport to meet Jack, and was in a hurry not to stay long. = It all makes sense

[Lauren [is Lost]]

Originally Posted by hezhez

hey my first ever post on this site. Not sure if this is the correct thread for this theory but i deff think that kate's=" he'll be wondering where i am" (last ep s3) I think the "He" is ben, now we know he's off the island, if he can get sayid to work for him, then whats to say that he cant get kate to hook up with him?!!! I mean she did sneak away to the airport to meet Jack, and was in a hurry not to stay long. = It all makes sense

Hi, welcome!

[Beach Crew]

I loved this episode. But it also really upset me.

I know I shouldn't focus on this but Sawyer. What a guy. He broke my heart with his little speech to Kate, and it was so sad. He really loves Kate but I don't think she loves him. I give praise to Josh Holloway as I thought he was amazing in this scene. Brilliant.

Sayid. So shocked. I don't even know what to say. I can't believe that that's our Sayid. But I guess murder isn't that far from torture.

Miles. I love him but I don't trust him. I was just thinking how much he reminded me of Season One Sawyer, and then Hurley confirmed this.

Overall, I'm too tired to comment more but I really enjoyed this episode, and once again, Josh broke my heart, lol.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by hezhez

hey my first ever post on this site. Not sure if this is the correct thread for this theory but i deff think that kate's=" he'll be wondering where i am" (last ep s3) I think the "He" is ben, now we know he's off the island, if he can get sayid to work for him, then whats to say that he cant get kate to hook up with him?!!! I mean she did sneak away to the airport to meet Jack, and was in a hurry not to stay long. = It all makes sense

Hey hezhez, welcome to the LC!
It has been mentioned elsewhere, but I agree with you - the "he" could very well be Ben, especially after seeing this episode and how Sayid now works for him. Could Kate also be Ben's hitman?..he'd need more than one, right?

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I know I shouldn't focus on this but Sawyer. What a guy. He broke my heart with his little speech to Kate, and it was so sad. He really loves Kate but I don't think she loves him.

You raise an interesting point, cos some of us were debating in another thread as to whether Jack still loves Kate now that 'rescue' is seemingly on the horizon. Could it now be that Sawyer also has less feelings for her now that we've reached this stage? He seemed optimistic about them making 'house' together on the island, but he seems very unwilling to do the same with her off island.

Where does this leave Kate? Could it be that after all her indecision, she is now being left with neither Jack or Sawyer?

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

You raise an interesting point, cos some of us were debating in another thread as to whether Jack still loves Kate now that 'rescue' is seemingly on the horizon. Could it now be that Sawyer also has less feelings for her now that we've reached this stage? He seemed optimistic about them making 'house' together on the island, but he seems very unwilling to do the same with her off island.

Where does this leave Kate? Could it be that after all her indecision, she is now being left with neither Jack or Sawyer?

Let me start by saying Kate doesn't deserve either of them, and so I hope they do leave her on her own.

I shall have a look in that thread in a moment, but my initial thought is that he does still love her, but that his mind is a little clouded by the thought of getting rescued. Likewise, I think Sawyer is a little preoccupied with the whole "surviving" thing, and getting over the Cooper incident. I do think he wants to live, and that he's on his way to being "James" again, but it's a struggle. He wants Kate to stay with him, imo, and help him move on with his life. But she clearly doesn't want that. As for getting off the island, perhaps it because there's so much that reminds him of "Sawyer" back home that he wants to stay where he's built up a new life for himself?

I sure as heck hope so. She's messed them around way too much, and she stopped them having a friendship, and now they're seeing their are bigger things in the picture than a girl. About time, lol.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

Let me start by saying Kate doesn't deserve either of them, and so I hope they do leave her on her own.

Agreed.

I shall have a look in that thread in a moment, but my initial thought is that he does still love her, but that his mind is a little clouded by the thought of getting rescued. Likewise, I think Sawyer is a little preoccupied with the whole "surviving" thing, and getting over the Cooper incident. I do think he wants to live, and that he's on his way to being "James" again, but it's a struggle. He wants Kate to stay with him, imo, and help him move on with his life. But she clearly doesn't want that. As for getting off the island, perhaps it because there's so much that reminds him of "Sawyer" back home that he wants to stay where he's built up a new life for himself?

Very interesting, cos I always got the feeling that Sawyer didn't care whether he lived or died..in fact he often welcomed death (see Raft with Shark and bullet extracting), but as you point out he now seems to have aspirations to live..and by live, it could very well mean 'live' and not just "surviving", which is what he's been doing most of his life.

I do hope Ben has had an influence on his change of mindset this episode

Yeah, the island could very well be his Tabula Rasa..afterall he hasn't really had his yet, has he.

I sure as heck hope so. She's messed them around way too much, and she stopped them having a friendship, and now they're seeing their are bigger things in the picture than a girl. About time, lol.

Exactly. And she's not all that anyways (even if she is looking 'hotter' this season)

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

Very interesting, cos I always got the feeling that Sawyer didn't care whether he lived or died..in fact he often welcomed death (see Raft with Shark and bullet extracting), but as you point out he now seems to have aspirations to live..and by live, it could very well mean 'live' and not just "surviving", which is what he's been doing most of his life.

I agree, sometimes I've thought he simply wants to die, but then, at the same time, for someone who "doesn't care" he seems to often act as someone who wants to survive. Season One - the raft. Season two - fighting to survive after being shot. Season three - Fighting to survive the cages. There are other examples too. He really does, I mean, he said he wants to live there! Stay there and build a home! I just want him to be happy for once. This could be his chance.

I do hope Ben has had an influence on his change of mindset this episode

No comment But I hope Sawyer's mindset changes too and he's happy again.

Yeah, the island could very well be his Tabula Rasa..afterall he hasn't really had his yet, has he.

Exactly. I mean he's hand moments where he's changed but he's always been dragged back down again. Who knows what his new life on the island might be like. Even if he has to do that without Kate. He'll get over her (and hopefully move on to Jules, lol).

Exactly. And she's not all that anyways (even if she is looking 'hotter' this season)

I noticed that. Her hair is looking really pretty *Sulks*

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Beach Crew

I agree, sometimes I've thought he simply wants to die, but then, at the same time, for someone who "doesn't care" he seems to often act as someone who wants to survive. Season One - the raft. Season two - fighting to survive after being shot. Season three - Fighting to survive the cages. There are other examples too. He really does, I mean, he said he wants to live there! Stay there and build a home! I just want him to be happy for once. This could be his chance.

True, it's almost a doubled edged sword with Sawyer - sometimes he wants to die, and sometimes he wants to survive. Both seem to drive him equally, yet one senses that the hope of something better around the corner must be within him, otherwise he would have put that gun to his head a long time ago. Perhaps he's more 'hopeful' than even he realises? Perhaps the island will be his salvation and reveal itself to be the very thing he was looking for despite spending so much blind fury in trying to get off.

No comment But I hope Sawyer's mindset changes too and he's happy again.

Should his mindset change then perhaps he and I will see eye to eye again. But he needs to be nice to Ben, B. I sense that Ben admires him in a strange kinda way - far more than he does Jack, for example. Perhaps it's cos they're both con-men who have learnt how to 'survive' in the wild? Just my opinion.

Exactly. I mean he's hand moments where he's changed but he's always been dragged back down again. Who knows what his new life on the island might be like. Even if he has to do that without Kate. He'll get over her (and hopefully move on to Jules, lol).

Exactly, Kate's fickle anyway, he needs some foundation in his life. Perhaps he should find himself first and then worry about women? I'm not sure Jules would be good for him, I think she'd look down on him and consider him too 'uneducated' for her, even tho he's probably smarter (or as smart as) Jack in many ways.

Wow, far too many hateful characters mentioned in that sentance!

I noticed that. Her hair is looking really pretty *Sulks*

Yes, she's tended to those split ends and seems to have discovered a better moisturiser

[Beach Crew]

Originally Posted by D-Roc

True, it's almost a doubled edged sword with Sawyer - sometimes he wants to die, and sometimes he wants to survive. Both seem to drive him equally, yet one senses that the hope of something better around the corner must be within him, otherwise he would have put that gun to his head a long time ago. Perhaps he's more 'hopeful' than even he realises? Perhaps the island will be his salvation and reveal itself to be the very thing he was looking for despite spending so much blind fury in trying to get off.

That's why we love him, coz he's such a complex guy. He just needs to get his life back on track and he'll be ok. Or at least he'll start to heal. I agree, there is something that keeps him hanging on, something that makes him fight....and whatever that is, he needs to cling onto that. I totally agree with that - I think Sawyer has so much courage in him, and sometimes he doesn't notice that. The island does seem to offer him something....so I guess we need to see how that plays out. And as for his blind fury, I think he puts all his fight into something coz it keeps him focused and takes his mind off his pain.

Should his mindset change then perhaps he and I will see eye to eye again. But he needs to be nice to Ben, B. I sense that Ben admires him in a strange kinda way - far more than he does Jack, for example. Perhaps it's cos they're both con-men who have learnt how to 'survive' in the wild? Just my opinion.

Well here's hoping I hate Ben, you know that, but even I can admit that they kinda need him right now. They need him to tell them what's going on. And yes, I see what you mean - it stems from "Everyman For Himself"....I think there's an air of if not respect, at least something. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I do see something there.

Exactly, Kate's fickle anyway, he needs some foundation in his life. Perhaps he should find himself first and then worry about women? I'm not sure Jules would be good for him, I think she'd look down on him and consider him too 'uneducated' for her, even tho he's probably smarter (or as smart as) Jack in many ways.

Wow, far too many hateful characters mentioned in that sentance!

Something solid and stable, like a beach Yeah, that's totally right, he needs to get himself stable and back on track before he starts falling in love again. I'm not either, but then, I sometimes see such similar qualities in them that something strikes me as they could at least have a friendship. I think Sawyer and Jules would be great friends - they could have a book club! But yes, I agree, Sawyer is incredibly intelligent, but I think he keeps quiet about it and uses that to his advantage.

Lol, nothing wrong with Jules

Yes, she's tended to those split ends and seems to have discovered a better moisturiser

Must you remind me