Official Episode 4.01 Discussion Thread

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by TheDharmaShark

So, having heard what Charlie had to say, who would you all have gone with? Locke or Jack?

Locke, though like Hurley I'd want to make clear my contempt. Charlie's the only one of the three who've tried to argue against leaving the island (the others are Locke and Ben) who actually gave a reason, and it's a good one. 'Trust my unsubstantiated word', coming from Locke and Ben, was understandably not enough. What Charlie said is.

[The Wizard]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Why did Desmond not go with Locke's group?

Interesting... seeing as he was the one reporting that the freighterites are bad news... Maybe he's just that desperate to get off of the island to see Penny that he has to find out who these people are as there might be a chance of getting off of the island...

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

Also Locke oughtn't to have willingly taken Ben, whose last interaction with him was a murder attempt, into his group. That didn't make sense. Ben ought to have been left stranded in the middle, wanted by no-one.

Well I think Rousseau chose Locke and Ben came with the baggage so Locke didn't really have a choice...

Originally Posted by daviePOSEIDON

By the way...I'm back!

Hi Arnie

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

I read matts thing about 'Abanddon,' but does noone else think its just a play on words? I mean he obviously wasnt part of Oceanic, and it seems he wanted to know the truth about hurley and the rest of the oceanic 6 'Abandonning' the rest of the survivors?

[daviePOSEIDON]

I know what you mean about Desmond. Think about it though, him, Sayid and Jack aren't very trusting people. I think they're just gonna approach them sceptically (I think that's the word). Also I loved the bit when Hurley said "I'm not listening to you". It's like...about bl**dy time someone didn't just suck up to Jack out of the tagalong folk!

[Addicted*to*lost]

This episode raised so many questions for me that I cant even remember them now!!! I loved it though, made me cry like a baby at least 3 times!!

[Him]

I think the guy's name is Abaddon by the way, as in Bible-Abaddon, where it's either a word to refer to a demon or a place/hell.

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

were with the survivors' reactions to Locke. Locke shouldn't be able to claim he's only ever acted in everyone's best interests without someone's going 'ha bloody ha' - sure, staying away from the freighter may well be in everyone's best interests now, but all his actions up till this point revolved around his wanting to stay on the island because he liked it there.

I think the writers tried to cover that when Sayid questioned him about blowing up the submarine... also by Locke admitting he has explaining to do. More importantly, the survivors didn't really have any reaction to Locke - he just stood around, waiting for his moment to invite them all to the barracks, probably not because he expects them to personally trust him, but because he expects many of them would feel unsafe and prefer to go there after hearing Charlie's last message.

Also Locke oughtn't to have willingly taken Ben, whose last interaction with him was a murder attempt, into his group. That didn't make sense. Ben ought to have been left stranded in the middle, wanted by no-one. It was interesting how peripheral Ben seemed to the action though - he had no real impact on anyone. I did very much enjoy seeing him led around on a rope by Rousseau for most of the episode. Everything else was great.

I thought that at the time as well, but I guess it could be justified by Locke's desire to grasp an opportunity to find out more about the Island.
Also, Locke's gunshot wound, which he received to the gut about 30 hours before, appears to have healed incredibly.

I didn't particularly like Ben being used as comic relief in this episode - not that he wasn't funny, but because it seemed to lose him his creepy edge. Last episode he was ominous while despairing at their calling of the boat, but now he's laid back and making wise-cracks? I was fine with it when he was in the hatch, and winding Locke and Jack up, but it seemed out of place here, as he doesn't have the upper hand like he did then. I also found it surprising that Ben thought it suddenly appropriate to justify his actions, or lack thereof, to Jack...

[esn]

Right now that Ive found the right thread for this at last:

I actually thought it was a slow episode - almost like they were easing us back in. I like how at the start we thought we were on the island and then it turns out we are off the island - I wonder if thats the producers way of telling us that the 'game' has now well and truely changed, given that in the previous openers, we thought that we were off the island when in fact we were on it. I think this is further evidenced by the fact that they now seem set on flashforwards - I particulary liked the bit with Jack and Hurley "Im thinking of growing a beard" .

I liked the more serious Hurley in this episode - although we still had the comedic element that made me like him in the first place, particulary with him 'cannon balling' (hmmm the Tsunami is due around that region pretty soon I wonder...). I gotta admitt I felt for both Claire and Hurley when Hurley was telling her about Charlies demise - I think there was some real emotion there and was well acted. I also liked the referece to the cockpit with Jack and Kate "It seems like a hundred years ago now we were here" that phrase seemed to sum up how long ago all those early days of season 1 seemed. I thought it was nice too that Sawyers nice was side being shown - although I would question if hes feeling a bit guilty after executing Tom.

For the rest of it, I thought it was a little slow to be honest. All the non Hurley scenes seemed a bit hammy to me, a bit rushed together and poorly acted and at times was a little dull. It made me want to hate Jack and Kate even more, and strangely I felt my self siding with Locke and Ben, although I wasnt too convinced about that either and found myself not particulary sympthising with anyone else other than Hurley and Claire. Although I did like Ben taking the mick out of Jack and the phone. I do also question how Naomi managed to survive for that long. And forgive me for being ignorant here, but if they wanted to warn Jack, and thats what Sawyer wanted to do - then why did Hurley throw the radio away???

Like any good lost episode, there wasnt much given away, whilst at the same time, added some yet more questions - who are the Oceanic 6? Why is Charlie still able to appear to Hurely? Who was the guy in the hut? All of which wont be answered anytime soon.

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

I dont understand why people keep saying Jack is being foolish etc. If you were stuck on the island, its more than likely that you would love to get off and be with your loved ones. Put yourself in his shoes at the end of season 3, someones parachuted onto the island who seems trustworthy, and has stated that she can get everyone rescued... which would save them from the constant attacks by the others, and various things in the jungle. Would you really say, no im staying, i dont want to see any of my family or friends ever again, I'd rather stay here and have my life constantly put into danger? If anyone is being foolish, or selfish, its Locke. He has noone to go back to, although its not his fault. But he has showed countless times that he wants to stay on the island, as he believes its special. Which is good enough for him, but when he attacked sayid in early season 1 he was being selfish, because He wants to stay on the island, so he doesnt want anyone else to leave. But anyway, back to the point If you had a chance to phone a boat and get rescue for yourself and the rest of your people, would you not do it?? The only warning you have is from locke, and everyone knows he wants to stay on the island... and as we learned from sayid, he'd do anything to achieve it. So whose to presume he isnt being selfish again??? Jack was only doing what he believed would save himself and his people, so i think everyone should stop having a go unless they they have evidence which shows otherwise! Its also visable that Jack is questionning what he did at the end. He learned what had happened with charlie, and when the parachuter man landed, he didnt exactly jump around saying 'were rescued,' he didnt even smile, he approached with caution...

Oh and i do actually like Locke, i just like Jack more , and i cant see why he's getting a hard time for his actions

EDIT - Actually, i think im gonna make a thread so everyone see's this, spread the word of Jack love!

[Him]

Originally Posted by esn

I do also question how Naomi managed to survive for that long. And forgive me for being ignorant here, but if they wanted to warn Jack, and thats what Sawyer wanted to do - then why did Hurley throw the radio away???

I would assume she benefited from the Island's healing properties temporarily, until dying again (I believe Jack checked her pulse earlier) from blood loss.

Sayid suggested they didn't use the walkie because he was certain they were monitoring the communications, though I have my doubts about that personally.

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

I dont understand why people keep saying Jack is being foolish etc.

I don't think anyone is saying Jack's being foolish.

If you were stuck on the island, its more than likely that you would love to get off and be with your loved ones. Put yourself in his shoes at the end of season 3, someones parachuted onto the island who seems trustworthy, and has stated that she can get everyone rescued... which would save them from the constant attacks by the others, and various things in the jungle. Would you really say, no im staying, i dont want to see any of my family or friends ever again, I'd rather stay here and have my life constantly put into danger? If anyone is being foolish, or selfish, its Locke. He has noone to go back to, although its not his fault. But he has showed countless times that he wants to stay on the island, as he believes its special. Which is good enough for him, but when he attacked sayid in early season 1 he was being selfish, because He wants to stay on the island, so he doesnt want anyone else to leave. But anyway, back to the point If you had a chance to phone a boat and get rescue for yourself and the rest of your people, would you not do it?? The only warning you have is from locke, and everyone knows he wants to stay on the island... and as we learned from sayid, he'd do anything to achieve it. So whose to presume he isnt being selfish again??? Jack was only doing what he believed would save himself and his people, so i think everyone should stop having a go unless they they have evidence which shows otherwise! Its also visable that Jack is questionning what he did at the end. He learned what had happened with charlie, and when the parachuter man landed, he didnt exactly jump around saying 'were rescued,' he didnt even smile, he approached with caution...

I think most of this is irrelevant, as the main reason for approaching such rescue with suspicion is nothing to do with Locke's trustworthiness, but the fact that Charlie's dying message was that the people on the boat aren't who they say they are. They do want to get rescued, there's no question about that, but they certainly don't want to get killed.

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

*other thread* lol, were double posting

[Him]

Originally Posted by IM-LOST-WITH-LOST

Read the board, half the people on the site have said similair things.

Well, where? I don't see how Jack can be construed as an idiot (based on this episode) - the proper course of action is quite obfuscated, mainly because this is Lost.
If you mean most people are siding with Locke here on whether to run away from the people, or run towards them, then well, that's down to personal opinion. Just because they opt for one choice, does not mean that they don't believe Jack's is not at all valid.
Most peopel will probably disapprove of Jack pulling the trigger and trying to kill Locke, but again, that doesn't make them think he's foolish.

I just don't get any 'Jack's foolish' vibes, but I'd be happily corrected if you pointed them out.

Jack approaching the parachuter isnt the focus of the thread,

I know. I may have confused you by using similar language in 'approaching rescue with suspicion', but I am referring to what's going on in general.

and i didnt say he approached cautionally due to Lockes claims, i acknowledged both lockes claims, and Charlies dieing wish.

I highlighted where you put the only warning was from Locke... They now have three people's word.

This meant that Jack Now understands that these people may not be who they say they are, but they didnt at the time he made the call...

They were celebrating when they had no reason to suspect Naomi's motives...[/quote]

Edit: I think we should agree to migrate to the other thread. I'll copy this over and stop posting, in relation to this, here.

[D-Roc]

It's been a depressing start to 2008 for TV, but LOST has just given me reason to start watching that tellybox again.

As episodes go, this was brilliant. Immediately, I was struck by the change in visuals - they seem to be using a different camera filter this year? The show seems to look more vibrant, radiant even..as if it's been off on holiday in Hawaii for the past 9 months..wait, it has. Like a long lost relative my eyes warmed to the sight of new Lost content..yes, even Jack.

Which brings me to my first point - I was fully expecting a twisty beginning, you know like how they started off S2 in the hatch with new character Desmond, or how they began S3 inside Othersville with new character Juliet. S4 begins with Jack..no twist..no surprise - the vodka bottle gave him away Same with Hurley..the girth of the hand and even the car made it obvious that it was him. But this is not a critism, because we are actually watching the beginning of the end..the point in the story where the post island island journey unfolds, and I was fancinated just seeing how 2 of our main Losties will begin the end phase of the show.

One of the most striking aspects for me is the change in Hurley - both on the island, and off the island he seems a changed man. During our rewatch I noted how in a few episodes last season he donned the 'leaders cloak', and to an extent he continued that in 4.01 - making more sense than Jack and being more open than Locke. His revelation about the "Oceanic 6" is most interesting (and als confirms that it was a 6 and not an 9 in that promo poster). From that I assume we're talking about himself, Jack, Kate..that leaves 3 more. From the island story I would deduce that Sawyer is also a possibility..as for the other 2, well I would guess Locke and possibly..possibly Ben, although Claire and Aaron would also make sense..hmm.

But this 'Oceanic 6' thing is even more of a puzzle when the current island story is considered - Hurley (along with many others) sided with Locke..Off-island Hurley then tells Jack that he made a mistake in doing that..yet both Hurley and Jack made it back. This indicates that somewhere along the line, people in Locke's camp either ended up changing their minds and wished they had sided with Jack's reasoning, or rescue changed their minds for them.

I'm willing to throw something out there - I think that for this to make more sense, somewhere between the current island story and the flash forwards in this episode, another group enters the fray - this group will present different options (and possibly threats) for the Losties than the freighties. Were the freighties the better option? Of course Hurley may regret siding with Locke simply because of the consequences that decision had on others - perhaps to some of those who remained in Jack's group? It's a mystery.


What I especially look forward to seeing is how Jack goes from being pleased to have left the island (in this flash forward) and not wanting to go back..to the bearded Jack we saw at the end of Through The Looking Glass. My hat goes off to TPTB, as they have created yet another layer and yet more stepping-stones to a mystery many thought would be strinking. The beginning of the end?...more like the end of the beginning..

But the mastery of this episode does not end there..we have officially ended another dimnetion of LOST - Hurley's visit from Charlie is, I believe, a major signpost as to the nature of the visions and manifestations. From their interactions it could be argued that TPTB are suggesting there is a base to support the claims of those who (claim to) see dead people/visions etc..those who are deemed mentally unwell are perhaps able to see beyond the curtain. The island is a place where these things are normal..the island seems to heighten the senses - however Hurley was able to interact with Charlie in the outside world..and it wasn't only him, his friend also saw him, which suggests that Charlie (and NOT Smokey) did actually visit Hurley and that the island is, in simple terms, like the equivalent of being drugged up on medication..or vice versa. Only thing is, Hugo saw Charlie before he was resubmitted to Santa Rosa..which may simply suggest that Hurley is special. Ben saw his dead mother on the island..his mom died off the island..Hurley is experiencing a very similar thing, only the other way around. This is extremly interesting..

As is the fact that Hurley saw Jacob. This is earth shattering for me, as I was under the impression that only those who are 'connected' can see or communicate with Jacob - Ben, Locke for example.. does this catapult Hurley up into their level of specialness? Perhaps the numbers were not Hurley's curse, but his gift..I am now considering the possibility that Hugo subconsciously willed himself to win the lottery - if he has the gift, then this is surely possible?

The two new characters appear very interesting indeed - Mathew could well be an Oceanic representative, however I get the impression that he works for other powers - Widmore or some other agency, perhaps. And who was he referring to when he asked Hurley if they were still alive - Losties left behind on the island, perhaps. If six made it ("Oceanic Six), then what fate has befallen the rest of them? Were they made to stay, and under what circumstances? Why would Jack make any deal to only bring back 5 of his people? All very juicy.

As for George Minkowski..was that him who landed on the island at the end? I don't know what it is about his voice, but it sends me chills up my spine than any Jacob "Help me".

The Naomi plot device was good and bad for me, it required a massive leap of blind trust. How could see survive the knife in the back? OK, "wounds are different on this island", yes thank you Mikhail (who, incidently I thought Hurley would see floating in the water during his cannon ball!), but isn't it a bit convenient that she managed to climb a tree (a tree for goodness sakes!) where Kate just happened to stop under..and then die moments later. I take it the island healed her sufficiently enough to allow her to set up a decoy bloodtrail, climb a tree, attack Kate and speak to Minkowski..why then, did the healing stop? Did the island suddenly reject her? As I said, leap of faith required. I'll let the creators off for that one, just don't do it again, this isn't "Heroes".

Also coincidental was everyone just happening to meet up at the same location within minutes of one another - are they jerking my chain or is this a subtle nod to there being more to coincidence and fate than we realise? As if a beginning of an end wasn't enough of a paradox.

Still, the Jack/Locke stand-off was immence..this was what I had waited 3 seasons to see..this time Locke didn't skulk off into the jungle and allow Jack to take the glory, no, he stood his ground and gave people are fair choice. Hugo's speech was immence and the whole scene was fantastically done. Sawyer choosing to "survive" was interesting - could it be him afterall who is in that coffin? I doubt it, but it made me reconsider for a second, as Kate would have reason to hate him for choosing Locke over her and Jack.

I intentioanlly haven't mentioned Ben yet..but may I say he was sublime. He had me in stitches with his sarcastic comments and observations. Although I am slightly confused - is he using gamesmanship, or is everyone really going to die..afterall he asked Rousseau to get Alex away from "here" -which I took to mean the radio tower area..now that they're at the wreckage (on-route to barracks), are they still under as great a threat? Afterall their was no sweeping bombing campaign or anything like that - perhaps the island will do something in an attempt to 'cleans' itself..maybe Ben is referring to what the island will do and less to what the Freighties will immediately do..that, or the 2004 Tsunami..it's due afterall.

I loved Ben's "With your permission Jack, I'd like to go with John Locke"..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA...I swear I fell off my chair...HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA..Jack's face...HAHAHAHAHAHA...I love you Ben (although Ben did look a tad suprised that Jack actual