Coffin Man & The Conflicted 'Hero'

[D-Roc]

Shame so many threads related to this episode were lost in the crash, anyway - Myself and Lewis have touched on the coffin in this thread - http://www.lostcommunity.co.uk/forum...d.php?tid=5612

But I wanted to bring it mainstream, as it were.

What I'm wondering is whether it's too obvious for the person in the coffin to be Michael?

Afterall, I guess he would be the most 'likely' person, based upon the info we have - most notably that it's a 'male', with a teenage son (Walt?). Not to mention that the newspaper clipping stated that he was from NY City, which is where Mike is from. Not to mention Kate's contempt - "Why would I go to the funeral??"

Of course this has been discussed before, but I'm now wondering whether the writers will throw us a surprise or whether it's a run of the mill scenario, with the coffin man being Mike.

I think that other possible candidates are as follows:

-Sawyer Ford
-Ben Linus
-Future Jack (with the time is now all screwed up angle)
-Past Jacob (for this flip-reverse, see above)
-Locke
-Minkowski
-Some other man we haven't yet me

Whoever this person was their death was enough to not only make Jack want to kill himself but bring him to their funeral despite being neither "friend or family". Was it the death of this man which provoled such strong emotions in Jack, or the fact that it was another death in a long line of deaths triggered by Jack's decision to "make that call"?

Is "every living thing on this island" now dying off the island. Is this what Ben meant by the 'begining' of the end?

[Murgatroyd]

My vote's on Locke. I can't really think of anyone else Jack would describe as 'not a friend' but whose death would strongly affect him. I don't think it's Ben because Ben's significantly more than just 'not a friend' - he's more a direct enemy. At least Jack and Locke began on more or less friendly terms and when we last saw them, for all the hatred between them, they didn't quite want one another dead. Not Sawyer on the grounds that Kate would never be that disinterested about Sawyer. Not future Jack because that doesn't make any sense (why would Kate speak like that about Jack in front of... Jack?). Anyway, traditional the show's been about the difference between Locke and Jack.

I don't quite know what the whole having a son thing's about though - that's the only real doubt I have over this question.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd

My vote's on Locke. I can't really think of anyone else Jack would describe as 'not a friend' but whose death would strongly affect him.

Yeah, Locke must be a strong possibility. Though I (would like to) think that Jack would see Locke as a friend by this time

I don't think it's Ben because Ben's significantly more than just 'not a friend' - he's more a direct enemy. At least Jack and Locke began on more or less friendly terms and when we last saw them, for all the hatred between them, they didn't quite want one another dead. Not Sawyer on the grounds that Kate would never be that disinterested about Sawyer. Not future Jack because that doesn't make any sense (why would Kate speak like that about Jack in front of... Jack?). Anyway, traditional the show's been about the difference between Locke and Jack.

Re: Ben being a 'direct enemy', don't you think that by the time the gaps are filled in, that relationships and 'sides' would have changed though? I just think it's possible that by 2007 (the flash forward) Jack may not see Ben as an enemy, afterall in the forward flash Jack is basically admitting that he weas wrong (like Locke did at the end of S2 incidently), so wouldn't this allude to the idea that Jack now concedes that Ben was right? Bit O/T there, but I think this is an interesting angle.

As for Jack not wanting Locke dead..i'd contest that somewhat..I think Jack has wanted John dead on many occassion. But you're right about John, he passed up the opportunity to kill Jack (possibly because he needs him?)

Re: future Jack, I think it does make sense if you understand what I mean. By future Jack i'm suggesting that time has somehow been screwed (for want of a better term) - We could have a situation where there are duplicates of everyone who left the island (a result of the flux gateway). This kate looked rather 'synthetic'..perhaps an indication that the Kate our Jack spoke to wasn't the original Kate. And the Jack our Jack visited at the funeral home, wasn't the original Jack. This could be why Jack wants to get back to the island..to fix it..to fix time

I don't quite know what the whole having a son thing's about though - that's the only real doubt I have over this question.

Could be a ruse I guess

[E Pluribus Unum]

I do actually think it could be Ben...

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Re: Ben being a 'direct enemy', don't you think that by the time the gaps are filled in, that relationships and 'sides' would have changed though?

Yes, I do think the relationship would have changed. But I don't think that Jack would forgive Ben for some (if not all) of his actions, even if it turns out that Ben is, essentially, trying to do a 'good thing' - he still hurt, attacked and terrorized Jack etc - which is why I think it could be Ben in the coffin. Ben wouldn't have many friends, naturally, but Jack can perhaps relate to Ben's overall goal, while still utterly despising his methods...

That's under the assumption Ben is, for example, saving the world of course...

By the way, did we get a date for the flashforward?

How about this for a curve ball, the guy in the coffin is Jin; Sun dying giving birth to their son...

A bit of musing: Sun dies and Jin blames Jack for her death, that would explain the friction; Jacks hesitance to call Jin a 'friend' but still go to his funeral... Like I said, curve ball :P

[Murgatroyd]

Though one other reason I don't think it's Ben is that I can't see him leaving the island and then trying to set up a normal life elsewhere. I think he'd kill himself long before that happened. Also he should probably be in prison, or at least somewhere very secure, but then so should Kate, so I don't really understand what's happening there.

[The_abbott]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

A bit of musing: Sun dies and Jin blames Jack for her death, that would explain the friction; Jacks hesitance to call Jin a 'friend' but still go to his funeral... Like I said, curve ball :P

Yeah but Kate would go to Jin's funeral. Its probably Juliet in the coffin. Kates a jealous you know what

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

I do actually think it could be Ben...

Yes, I do think the relationship would have changed. But I don't think that Jack would forgive Ben for some (if not all) of his actions, even if it turns out that Ben is, essentially, trying to do a 'good thing' - he still hurt, attacked and terrorized Jack etc - which is why I think it could be Ben in the coffin. Ben wouldn't have many friends, naturally, but Jack can perhaps relate to Ben's overall goal, while still utterly despising his methods...

That's under the assumption Ben is, for example, saving the world of course...

By the way, did we get a date for the flashforward?

How about this for a curve ball, the guy in the coffin is Jin; Sun dying giving birth to their son...

A bit of musing: Sun dies and Jin blames Jack for her death, that would explain the friction; Jacks hesitance to call Jin a 'friend' but still go to his funeral... Like I said, curve ball :P

Hmm, I would dispute the notion that Ben 'attacked' Jack's people. I see where you're coming from re Jack's potential mindset, maybe he wouldn't forgive Ben - afterall jack knows how to keep a grudge. I would lie to think though, that Jack would 'let it go' and I think if Ben was in that coffin, then perhaps he has and perhaps he realises that Ben wasn't 'the enemy'. Of course we can only speculate at this point.

The date of the FF is 2007 - according to the paper clipping and the Phone Jack used.

As for it being Jin..hmm, that sure would be a curveball - I see your thinking there and like the motive, though im not sure I completely buy it yet

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

I would dispute the notion that Ben 'attacked' Jack's people.

You're quite within your rights, of course, but it's a very novel interpretation....

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Hmm, I would dispute the notion that Ben 'attacked' Jack's people. I see where you're coming from re Jack's potential mindset, maybe he wouldn't forgive Ben - afterall jack knows how to keep a grudge. I would lie to think though, that Jack would 'let it go' and I think if Ben was in that coffin, then perhaps he has and perhaps he realises that Ben wasn't 'the enemy'. Of course we can only speculate at this point.

Semantics :P From Jacks perspective Ben caused he and his 'people' suffering. Whether it was directly Ben or not is irrelevant; he is their figure head - Ben represents many of the bad things that happened to Jack (and a few others too), I'm not sure the realization that Ben was motivated by a 'greater good' would make Jack feel any better. But yes, if that were to happen, I think Jack (and even I) could see that Ben isn't "the enemy", as such, but I'd still stand by (and expect Jack to, as well..) the opinion that some of 'the Others' actions can't be justified...

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

The date of the FF is 2007 - according to the paper clipping and the Phone Jack used.

As for it being Jin..hmm, that sure would be a curveball - I see your thinking there and like the motive, though im not sure I completely buy it yet

Ah cool, thanks...

Yeah, it's not something I had really considered before. I literally thought of it as I was typing... But I'd never heard anyone think it could be Jin so thought I'd throw it out there...

EDIT: Just to clarify, by 'attack' I mean when Ethan kidnapped Claire and Charlie. Wars have been started by far less..

[hundredand8]

I think Jacks suicide attempt isn't giving us any clues as to the mans identity. It could be that the man in the coffin is the only other survivor who made it, which means Michael, or the last one of many to commit suicide, which means it could be anyone.

The same goes for Kates reaction. I can see how she would not want to go to Michaels funeral after what he did at the end of S2. And if all the people but her were so badly adjusted to life off the island that they would want to kill themselves, then I guess she would want to stay away from any funeral.

The only clue left is the teenage son. And I'm afraid to say, its only Michael who we know has a teenage son, so my vote is on Michael.

[Easily confused]

Although i have no strong feelings as to who it def. is I keep thinking about the fact that no one turned up which to me means it can only be Ben. I think everyone else would have had at least one person (other than Jack) turn up (unless that one other person dies in the meantime)

As for the teenage son its not so unbelievable that Karl is actually Ben's son and thats why he is so anti Alex/Karl but i cannot think why it would need to be a secret.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by EPU

Just to clarify, by 'attack' I mean when Ethan kidnapped Claire and Charlie. Wars have been started by far less..

I think you can count the attack on the raft as part of the initial unprovoked assault as well (as I'm sure it wasn't in retaliation for Charlie's killing Ethan - the only offensive action taken by the Losties against the Others at that point), and all the attacks made by the Others on the tail-section (though they don't really count as 'Jacks's people', they're all there through the same accident and they shared a common goal: stay alive and get home).

Re. the teenage son - it's possible that the details on the cutting are insignificant. I know it seems unlikely, but when Juliet was looking at Rachel's medical notes she was actually looking at notes belonging to a middle aged man with heart problems, not a young woman with cancer, and that's been acknowledged as a very lax prop error. So I'm not sure how much store we can really set on the information written on that cutting.

[hundredand8]

Originally Posted by Easily confused

Although i have no strong feelings as to who it def. is I keep thinking about the fact that no one turned up which to me means it can only be Ben. I think everyone else would have had at least one person (other than Jack) turn up (unless that one other person dies in the meantime)

Thats pausible, I agree.

On the other hand, if noone but Jack and Kate got of the island, then there would be noone to attend.

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

Semantics :P From Jacks perspective Ben caused he and his 'people' suffering. Whether it was directly Ben or not is irrelevant; he is their figure head - Ben represents many of the bad things that happened to Jack (and a few others too), I'm not sure the realization that Ben was motivated by a 'greater good' would make Jack feel any better. But yes, if that were to happen, I think Jack (and even I) could see that Ben isn't "the enemy", as such, but I'd still stand by (and expect Jack to, as well..) the opinion that some of 'the Others' actions can't be justified...

Yes, Ben is the figurehead but I would hope that Jack is fair enough to realise that sometimes Ben's people (like Tom and Danny for instance) took matters into their own hands - Danny in beating up Sawyer and Tom in blowing up the raft and wanting to put 3 bullets in Kwon, Nadler and Jarrah, despite Ben's direct orders not to. I don't think it's fair for Jack to associate all of his bad experiences with Ben - or even the Others as a whole for that matter. After all we have seen Jac handle things badly, tho he may have had the best of intentions (well, at times anyway), so who is Jack to hold Ben and the Others responsible for the way things have apparentyl ended up. I think that Jack holds himself responsible (in the FF) and I think he realises that the Others actions, by and large (not including individual moments of 'flaire' by Danny and Tom), were most justifiable). Of course I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

The date of the FF is 2007 - according to the paper clipping and the Phone Jack used.

As for it being Jin..hmm, that sure would be a curveball - I see your thinking there and like the motive, though im not sure I completely buy it yet

Ah cool, thanks...

Yeah, it's not something I had really considered before. I literally thought of it as I was typing... But I'd never heard anyone think it could be Jin so thought I'd throw it out there...

Yeah the Jin idea is a new one, we'll just have to keep our minds open until we have more leads to go on or something to spark it further or otherwise.

Yeah, the 2007 thing is quite ironic so to speak, since that means that although it was a forward flash