"Every Living Thing on this Island will Die!" - Even the half-lifers?

[D-Roc]

My hero, Ben, proclaimed that if 'rescue' came, everyliving thing on the island would die.

But what about the half-lifers? What about those who have died, yet are still alive on some level. Of course im speaking about the peeps who have passed, yet have come back to help, hinder, guide various island characters - people like; Emily Linus, Boone, Ana, Yemi...

Technically these people are dead...yet alive = half-lifers. Half way dead, yet still alive in the memories of our losties/others. If people are alive in our memories, so much so that they actually return from the dead, then surely this means that they still have a concious existence somewhere.

I believe doctors say that people are only dead when their brain has died. So, if conciousness resides in the brain...are these visitors still alive..half alive?

And how could they die, if they're also half dead? Is Ben's fear that if the island is breached, the half-lifers will take over? And if so, what would this do to our perceptions of life and death..would being 'alive' lose all meaning? Is this dangerous? For instance, had Jack jumped, it wouldn't mean anything, since he'd die but also be alive? Is this the battle that Ben is fighting against..is he protecting the meaning of beng alive as we know it?

Trippy.

[Blloydy]

*is slightly confused* :P

I think, that only the living things will die. ie, the dead (or half dead ) will still be able to haunt people on the island. This makes it interesting because it would allow everyone (the Losties and the others) who were killed/died to still haunt their killers (presumably Niomi's people).

At first I thought the people who's memory the dead lived in would be dead, therefore they would no longer live on, but Ben never knew his mum (at an age that he would remember her anyway)

[Malion]

I wrote something about this... the spirit world and all... it was pretty funny.
No, I think they will be ok...

I think the bad guys are just going to quarintine the place, kill everyone and pretend it never existed... a government thing most likely.

[James]

I dont think they are 'half-lifers' I think the Island is just showing them visions in forms which they can relate to easier. So when Locke sees Boone I think it is only in the visual sense that he is Boone and as such has none of Boones concious. So I do not think there are any half lifers just dead and alive people and visions from the Island or possibly Jacob.

[Him]

I agree with James...
I don't think those who appear in these visions are 'half-dead'. I think it's the Monster, as was implied when it appeared right after vision-Yemi went mad, to beat Eko up. Not only that - living people have appeared in 'visions' as well .

Another question though, would be regarding whether or not the Monster actually retains the conscious of the dead... Perhaps it does of those whose memories it appears to read, like it did to Eko and Boone. It also seems to steal bodies every now again. Why?

Oh yeah - I think it's more likely that the whispers are the actual dead.

[D-Roc]

Interesting. I agree that on the one hand these visions could simply be memories extracted by the island/Jacob so that it can communicate with the losties in a way the can understand. Afterall that's what communion is about - having a relationship..

But on the otherhand, we could be looking at a situation where these visions of the dead exist and act on their on accord (for a limited time period perhaps?).

I guess we have to figure out where the demarcation line is between reality which exists and is manifest by our own subconcious minds and reality which exists outside of our minds and outside of our control

Concious reality Vs Subconcious reality

YOU DECIDE!

[hundredand8]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Interesting. I agree that on the one hand these visions could simply be memories extracted by the island/Jacob so that it can communicate with the losties in a way the can understand. Afterall that's what communion is about - having a relationship..

But on the otherhand, we could be looking at a situation where these visions of the dead exist and act on their on accord (for a limited time period perhaps?).

I guess we have to figure out where the demarcation line is between reality which exists and is manifest by our own subconcious minds and reality which exists outside of our minds and outside of our control

Concious reality Vs Subconcious reality

YOU DECIDE!

Well, take one example. Episode "?"

If spirits exist on their own accord: it means that the spirits (or whatever) of Ana and Yemi can agree to manipulate first Eko in taking Locke on a trip to the question mark, and then Locke to send Eko up on the cliff above the Pearl hatch. And whats more, they have to know about the question mark (one of them told Eko about the question mark, not sure who was? never mind) but none of them ever saw the blast door map. Doesn't make sense to me.

I think its much easier if "the island" knows about these things because it can read anyones mind and it can manipulate anyone on it. Or its done by technology. Or something.

[Jen]

I don't think that the people are "half-lifers" I just think they are visions, or memories that people want to see type thing.

So I think that they will just go when the perosn who imagined/saw them dies. Or if the losties DO get off the island and no-one dies, then they'll just follow tehm around, because they're their memories/visions a bit like dreams?

argh sorry, that was not very good wording lol!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by hundredand8

Well, take one example. Episode "?"

If spirits exist on their own accord: it means that the spirits (or whatever) of Ana and Yemi can agree to manipulate first Eko in taking Locke on a trip to the question mark, and then Locke to send Eko up on the cliff above the Pearl hatch. And whats more, they have to know about the question mark (one of them told Eko about the question mark, not sure who was? never mind) but none of them ever saw the blast door map. Doesn't make sense to me.

I think its much easier if "the island" knows about these things because it can read anyones mind and it can manipulate anyone on it. Or its done by technology. Or something.

Good points man, i can;t dispute were you'recoming from and you may well be right.

Ok, so lets see. Is it possible that the dead spirits/souls of Yemi and Ana (for instance) could collude in order to 'help' Eko? Personally I think Yes. I think that spirits are not able to communicate with us easily. Those of us who are still alive reside on a different 'badnwidth' to those who have died, therefore perhaps they can only influence us by signs or symbols, or if they're strong enough, by symbolic references or visual appearances..

Perhaps once they died, all the answers were given to them? It is oftne said that this is when we will recieve the answers we require. Therefore perhaps since they were the two closest peolple (on the island) to Eko, they combined their spritual power and gave Eko sybolic messages to help him in his quest.

Or perhaps it's not even a case of one of the other..perhaps it's a combination of the dead acting on their own accord AND the island also manipulates or guides them? Perhaps this is why we have the whispers..perhaps the dead and the island are in conflict? Perhaps the island tries to block them out (much like the it does with the outside world) and has limited to whispers, on most occassions?

I don't know, but it's an interesting one. Personally i do believe that there are 2 forces struggling against one another. Locke once said that stuggle is natures way of strengthening...well, who represents nature: The island..or the dead?

[hundredand8]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo

Or perhaps it's not even a case of one of the other..perhaps it's a combination of the dead acting on their own accord AND the island also manipulates or guides them? Perhaps this is why we have the whispers..perhaps the dead and the island are in conflict? Perhaps the island tries to block them out (much like the it does with the outside world) and has limited to whispers, on most occassions?

If the dead entered a state of collective consciousnes and thus can draw from memories of all the people who ever died on the island? Then Ana-Lucia and Yemi are there, and presumbably Radzinsky would know about the question mark and then thats all you need to deliver the message.

How is this different from "the island"? Not much, actually. At which point we have arrived at a theory that can explain everything except Kates black horse. Oh wait, The Marshal saw the black horse too, didn't he?

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by hundredand8

If the dead entered a state of collective consciousnes and thus can draw from memories of all the people who ever died on the island? Then Ana-Lucia and Yemi are there, and presumbably Radzinsky would know about the question mark and then thats all you need to deliver the message.

How is this different from "the island"? Not much, actually. At which point we have arrived at a theory that can explain everything except Kates black horse. Oh wait, The Marshal saw the black horse too, didn't he?

The two ideas are different because with one idea, the dead can act of their own accord (within reason) - they're able to interact with the environment independently from the island's will. These dead people still have some concious connection to the real world. In effect, they're half-lifers or at the very least they still have conciousness - the one of the very things which define 'living'.

The other idea states that the island is soley responsible for the 'visions' of the dead. In essense these visions are just that and are almost computer-like images or downloads extracted from the minds of our losties. These visions of the dead are 'programmed' to act a certain way/deliver certain messages. In essence, they have no remnants of conciousness or soul - they're quite simply downloads extracted from the subconcious minds of the island residents. The downloader..or 'hacker'? Most likely the 'Island' or J-cob

Kates Black Horse is (imo), most like the result of the 'Island' downloading her subconcious mind - because of course humans are unable to control their subconcious and her's was at this time (Sawyer/Wayne thing) in a state which mirrored her pre-island moment of being trapped to being free. The horse i guess, symbolised this, even if it was not a symbol she would've conciously chosen for herself.

[D-Roc]

I should also add - is there a difference between those visions/experiences of the dead during a dream (Eko when he dreamt he was Locke in 2x21) and visions/experiences of the dead during times of being awake..?

It's been a subtle exploration so far, but I do think that these 2 methods of experiencing the dead could be different for a reason

[Him]

I pondered that last night, but I really don't think so... On both accounts they just manipulate/guide the person on the receiving end.

I think the only reason dreams are so pervasive is because the Island/Monster likes to give visions to people when they're alone or to them specifically, and doing it Freddy Krueger style, they're guaranteed to be alone.

Incidentally, why couldn't Kate see Christian when Jack was looking at him, but Sawyer could see the horse. Why the discrepancy.

[hundredand8]

Originally Posted by Him

Incidentally, why couldn't Kate see Christian when Jack was looking at him, but Sawyer could see the horse.