Kates and her handcuffs

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo,February 11, 2007 11:56 am

Actually i think Sawyer and Kate have come to like the cages..if they REALLY didnt want to be there then they wouldve ran when they had the chance..seperate island or not, Sawyer (imo) would most certainly have ran and tried some form of escape (isnt he a con man?) if he really wanted to get the hell outta Alcatraz..same goes for Kate. The thing is, they've come around to Bens way..they realise that the man has given them an opportunity and whether they want to admit it or not, Ben rocks   And the fact that they didnt run, proves (imo) that what Ben is doing is not 'wrong', in light of the abnormal circumstances - remember, this island is not in the civilised world..different rules apply and Ben hasnt been nasty or vile like many (for some reason) suggest. I think that people think of the word 'Other' and instantly associate it with bad things   Yet what has Ben done 'truely' wrong? He's treated Kate and the rest with respect, consideration and care. imo

You keep asking "what has Ben done wrong" and then we will continue to tell you about the kidnapping and the beatings and the forcing of manual labour, and then you'll say "that doesn't count they're in the wild". You do realise this is your definition, Ben and the others (on anyone else, ever, for that matter) have never used this in their defence (as far as I know) and the only time it was mentioned was when Sawyer said it. And when he said that he was referring to their being NO LAWS and sorry, even if there are no laws it doesn't make kidnapping and the-like perfectly fine.

"And the fact that they didnt run, proves (imo) that what Ben is doing is not 'wrong', in light of the abnormal circumstances"

lol, because people refuse to run doesn't make what their captive is doing/has done right. I think in this situation we can strike the lack of escape attempts to:

Common sense (i.e. we try and run now, we die)

Fear

Location (they don't know where they are, nor how to get back to "their" island, oh and the fact they're actually on another island)

If I punch someone in the face and they don't run away, does that make it ok?

----

How is it fair to judge the others by this 'in the wild' law and not the losties?
And how can the others enforce their 'laws' on the losties, yet the losties don't get “carte blanche” when they 'act' like the others?

Sounds like selective law to me.

(If you have a copy of the do’s and don’t’s of the ‘wild’ I’d be interested to look over them)

For all you can say of Kate and (in particular) Sawyer; they're not stupid. Why would they even try and escape when the odds are so heavily stacked against them?

And your point about offered freedom is irrelevant. Not only was that offered to Jack, it was ONLY offered to him because Ben was running out of time and he didn't have time to 'break' him (his words). So perhaps Ben would, eventually, offer Kate freedom - but evidence would say that this would only occur when Ben wanted something in return (oh and the jury is still out on Mike and Walt, though saying that – they only offered him freedom because he agreed to release Ben).

The fact you would ‘choose’ to be in Kate’s situation totally takes away the whole point, you don’t get no choice – you’re made to do something you didn’t want to do at the time. So even if Ben took me to Disney Land, through force, I’m going to tell him where he can stick his candy and Mickey Mouse rides. I mean when did he become owner of me and my actions anyway?

You seem to base alot of your argument on the 'wild' and Ben's 'greater good' end product, neither of which has been given to us by the writers, so yeah - I wouldn't take it too personal when viewers (and posters) see a man kidnap, threaten, force to work, put in a cage and so on and so forth, people who the viewers have can relate more with.

I'd also question Ben's leadership skills, I mean if he TRUELY is a good guy, surely he should have taken Pickett of Sawyers case - can't he see the man has lost it?

[Murgatroyd]

Well someone like Kate should by all rights be locked up in jail anyway..and so under Ben's hospitality at least she's getting looked after, fed, watered and being protected from Cerberus and whoever else is out there.

True that Kate should be in jail, but kind of irrelevant seeing as Ben doesn't claim to be locking her up because of her misdemeanours, nor has he made such a claim to Sawyer. And if that is his reason, why's Jack there? But anyway, if he's taking on the role of official lawkeeper in his society, and bearing in mind that his captives are unwilling, forced members of that society who've been told to keep away but offered no help in doing anything of the sort, he kind of needs to tell them what he's up to and put them on trial, and then quit holding them in tortuous conditions. They're not signed-up citizens and have not voted for Ben's regime. This is the WILD, Korevo! Better still though, if he really has links to the outside world, Ben should make a citizen's arrest on those people and hold them decently and safely if he really believes them a threat until they can be repatriated and tried fairly and properly. And he should hand himself over as well, natch, the abusive fiend. But as I say, I don't see how it's relevant when Ben's not admitted it as a motive... and, unless there's something incredibly out of character in an upcoming flashback, it's certainly not relevant to Jack.

And you;re right, Kate hasnt been offered freedom - she's been given it (more of it) and she's since been ablle to stop running - tell me, what is more free than that..to break the habit of a lifetime..is THAT not freedom? is that not thanks to ben? As for fishbiscuits, well beggers cant be choosers..and noone has forced them to much them..Sawyer chose to eat like an animal..im sure Jules has got more of her muffins on supply, but obsviously Skate prefer animal chow

Okay, well, obviously that last bit's a joke. They're eating what they're given. And just because being kidnapped and held against your will and mistreated and all that enables you to perversely overcome some internal maggot in your head, that doesn't make the kidnapping altruistic or reasonable. It's up to Kate, Sawyer and Jack to decide whether or not they want to surmount their issues, not Ben. I wouldn't actually be terribly proud of myself if I did that to some poor lug on the street who inadvertantly worked through some personal problems while in captivity, nor would I expect said lug to treat me with anything but utter contempt. And of course they'd be very lucky to escape that kind of treatment without a raft of shiny new issues in place of their old ones. You think their ability to trust's going to survive this encounter? And hasn't Jack turned into a man with murder on his mind since his captivity began? Great job there, Ben.

Would you REALLY tell him to stick it if you were in Kates position and he offered you a chance to one day go home? I wouldnt (if i really wanted to get off the island)..i would jump at the chance and i think most people would.

I wouldn't want him to think that anything could excuse or justify his behaviour to me, so no, I wouldn't. But if Jack and co do accept his offer, I sincerely hope they don't then feel they owe the man anything but total contempt. I certainly hope they wouldn't feel themselves in his debt, because a good man would surely not be so uncharitable as to offer freedom under strict conditions and only after several weeks of mental and physical abuse.

Kate was kidnapped, but its a small price to pay really. It's not like she's been brutalised by the Others..she lived the life of riley up in that cage..she even gets preferential treatment.

You have a very... unfamiliar notion of what constitues the life of Riley. I'd be obliged if you'd go back and read my list of things that Kate's obliged to put up with in her current situation, and see if you truly consider them in some sense desirable or even preferential to freedom, because I consider them upsetting and abusive.

Actually i think Sawyer and Kate have come to like the cages..if they REALLY didnt want to be there then they wouldve ran when they had the chance..seperate island or not, Sawyer (imo) would most certainly have ran and tried some form of escape (isnt he a con man?) if he really wanted to get the hell outta Alcatraz..same goes for Kate. The thing is, they've come around to Bens way..they realise that the man has given them an opportunity and whether they want to admit it or not, Ben rocks * And the fact that they didnt run, proves (imo) that what Ben is doing is not 'wrong', in light of the abnormal circumstances - remember, this island is not in the civilised world..different rules apply and Ben hasnt been nasty or vile like many (for some reason) suggest. I think that people think of the word 'Other' and instantly associate it with bad things * Yet what has Ben done 'truely' wrong? He's treated Kate and the rest with respect, consideration and care. imo

Beg pardon? They didn't run because of, in Kate's case, a sense of loyalty to and fear for the men she would be leaving behind and in Sawyer's case because he believes it's utterly futile, not because they wanted to be there or because they think Ben's doing them a favour ( ). What indications have you seen from either of them that, if given the choice between staying in the cages and being released, all three of them, to the other island, they'd choose the former? Anyway, we don't know yet what they're going to do - tonight we'll find out whether or not they run. If they do run, will that make Ben wrong?

[Murgatroyd]

And obviously it goes without saying that I agree wholeheartedly with everything that EPU's just written there. Well done for flagging up the manifold contradictions.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,February 11, 2007 01:06 pm

And obviously it goes without saying that I agree wholeheartedly with everything that EPU's just written there. Well done for flagging up the manifold contradictions.

Thank you Murg - of course the same goes for your post. I do have to ask though - what does manifold contradictions mean?

[Murgatroyd]

Originally Posted by E PLURIBUS UNUM,February 11, 2007 01:27 pm

Thank you Murg - of course the same goes for your post. I do have to ask though - what does manifold contradictions mean?

Sorry. Manifold's a stupid word. I just meant 'lots of' really - I'm talking about the wild-esque double standards that somehow allow the Others to formulate laws and oblige the Losties to abide by them without even know what they are. That kind of needed pointing out....

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Murgatroyd,February 11, 2007 01:30 pm

Sorry. Manifold's a stupid word. I just meant 'lots of' really - I'm talking about the wild-esque double standards that somehow allow the Others to formulate laws and oblige the Losties to abide by them without even know what they are. That kind of needed pointing out....

Ah ok, yeah that's a main issue that has bothered me. Especially since we don't really have any evidence that such laws exist!

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted by KoR-evo,February 11, 2007 11:56 am

Actually i think Sawyer and Kate have come to like the cages..if they REALLY didnt want to be there then they wouldve ran when they had the chance..seperate island or not, Sawyer (imo) would most certainly have ran and tried some form of escape (isnt he a con man?) if he really wanted to get the hell outta Alcatraz..same goes for Kate. The thing is, they've come around to Bens way..they realise that the man has given them an opportunity and whether they want to admit it or not, Ben rocks * And the fact that they didnt run, proves (imo) that what Ben is doing is not 'wrong', in light of the abnormal circumstances - remember, this island is not in the civilised world..different rules apply and Ben hasnt been nasty or vile like many (for some reason) suggest. I think that people think of the word 'Other' and instantly associate it with bad things * Yet what has Ben done 'truely' wrong? He's treated Kate and the rest with respect, consideration and care. imo

You keep asking "what has Ben done wrong" and then we will continue to tell you about the kidnapping and the beatings and the forcing of manual labour, and then you'll say "that doesn't count they're in the wild". You do realise this is your definition, Ben and the others (on anyone else, ever, for that matter) have never used this in their defence (as far as I know) and the only time it was mentioned was when Sawyer said it. And when he said that he was referring to their being NO LAWS and sorry, even if there are no laws it doesn't make kidnapping and the-like perfectly fine.

Of course, my claims of what Ben has done wrong? are laced with the notion of context of both the situation and what his people have suffered at the hands of the losties At the end of the day we (i feel) need to see the bigger picture. As Locke once said - were in denial. We need to realise the nature of this situation, which is unlike normal society and hence different standards should also be considered. Yes, it's wrong to kidnap people, but then by island standards it's not the worst crime in the word and also, we should look at the 'intent' behind it. They havent kidnapped them to beat them to death or to starve them. No, Ben has looked after and provided for them. Of course, they should realise that they have to start off at the bottom..you cant expect to develop and re-grow without starting off from a primitive level - hence the fishbiscuits, the labour and the cages. These things are in place to force them inwards..thus eventually freeing them of their shackles. To find yourself..you first have to find out who you really are. Well the Wild is the Wild..it has many definitions..just because the Others havent uttered it, doesnt mean that the dont currently realise it exists. The Wild is often a state of mind, or a situation..it's the place where civilised norms are reflected via a broken mirror..the Wild is often skewed and and the fractures represent the broken pieces of society and our lives. Yes, id say the Others are aware of the Wild.

And yes, Ben kidnapped people..the losties have killed people. I know that id rather be kidnapped than killed. We shouldnt overlook relativity..

"And the fact that they didnt run, proves (imo) that what Ben is doing is not 'wrong', in light of the abnormal circumstances"

lol, because people refuse to run doesn't make what their captive is doing/has done right. I think in this situation we can strike the lack of escape attempts to:

Common sense (i.e. we try and run now, we die)

Fear

Location (they don't know where they are, nor how to get back to "their" island, oh and the fact they're actually on another island)

If I punch someone in the face and they don't run away, does that make it ok?

Well if i believe that there was a part of Sawyer and Kate who didnt want to run because they felt safe, protected and because they were finally facing their demons. If you remember, Kate could've ran along time ago - yet she didnt..nor did Sawyer. They had the chance and 2 cons like these would've taken any chance if they really thought that Ben was evil. I mean, if Ben is really evil then that would mean that would think he;s gonna kill them..which would mean that theyd rather take their chances and run, rather than give up and die. Which in turn makes me believe that the must realise that Ben is an upstanding man, since both of them stayed..when BOTH of them couldve ran.

How is it fair to judge the others by this 'in the wild' law and not the losties?
And how can the others enforce their 'laws' on the losties, yet the losties don't get “carte blanche” when they 'act' like the others?

Sounds like selective law to me.

But i DO judge the losties by this wild and to be fair..havent they already had "carte blance"?? ..as i recall about 9 to 10 Others lay dead right about now..dead from the hands of the losties - sounds like carte blance to me. How many Losties have the Others killed again?..i forget..please refresh my memory

(If you have a copy of the do’s and don’t’s of the ‘wild’ I’d be interested to look over them)

lol, i have them tattooed on my body like scofield from prison break

For all you can say of Kate and (in particular) Sawyer; they're not stupid. Why would they even try and escape when the odds are so heavily stacked against them?

Because they run..its what they do.."a tiger dont change it's stripes, freckles". THATS WHY Which tells me that a part of them must be seeing the value in Bens way..afterall, they had the 'choice' to run and yet they didnt..and that is very important to consider methinks..

And your point about offered freedom is irrelevant. Not only was that offered to Jack, it was ONLY offered to him because Ben was running out of time and he didn't have time to 'break' him (his words). So perhaps Ben would, eventually, offer Kate freedom - but evidence would say that this would only occur when Ben wanted something in return (oh and the jury is still out on Mike and Walt, though saying that – they only offered him freedom because he agreed to release Ben).

Well excuse Ben for wanting someone to scratch his back once in a while..he never said he was father Christmas ..it's normal to make deals like this..it's a case of you fix my back..i'll scratch yours As i said elsewhere..BEn took advantage of fate/opportunity and has seen that he can benefit the Others and the Losties. Hes a good samaritan. Well theres nothing to suggest that Mike and Walt arent sitting at home right now drinking a cuppa soup. As far as we know, Bens word is cannon on this front.

The fact you would ‘choose’ to be in Kate’s situation totally takes away the whole point, you don’t get no choice – you’re made to do something you didn’t want to do at the time. So even if Ben took me to Disney Land, through force, I’m going to tell him where he can stick his candy and Mickey Mouse rides. I mean when did he become owner of me and my actions anyway?

Doesnt matter. The fact that i was presented with an opportunity to go home, that i didnt previously have would make me jump at the chance. Afterall if they really want to get off the island then its a small price to pay. Not everything in life is free y'know

You seem to base alot of your argument on the 'wild' and Ben's 'greater good' end product, neither of which has been given to us by the writers, so yeah - I wouldn't take it too personal when viewers (and posters) see a man kidnap, threaten, force to work, put in a cage and so on and so forth, people who the viewers have can relate more with.

Well i just feel that people are too willing to take things at face value..me? i prefer to look beyond the cancass and reach deep into the rich colours and brush strokes. For me theres no doubnt in my mind that theyve set Ben up like this to make folks think hes bad and evil. I await peoples change of heart with interest

I'd also question Ben's leadership skills, I mean if he TRUELY is a good guy, surely he should have taken Pickett of Sawyers case - can't he see the man has lost it?*

well didnt he say that "Danny can wait"..which for my money infers that Ben was the only thing preventing Pickett from killing Sawyer. Sawyer fans should be praising Ben imo

[IM-LOST-WITH-LOST]

When i first saw the handcuffs scene i just assumed it was the handcuffs that did all the cuttting. Kate was rubbing her wrists in S1 Ep1 so it was probably the marshalls cuffs rubbing then...

Thats my take on it anyway unless we get something in the deleted scenes or something...

[D-Roc]

Well someone like Kate should by all rights be locked up in jail anyway..and so under Ben's hospitality at least she's getting looked after, fed, watered and being protected from Cerberus and whoever else is out there.

True that Kate should be in jail, but kind of irrelevant seeing as Ben doesn't claim to be locking her up because of her misdemeanours, nor has he made such a claim to Sawyer. And if that is his reason, why's Jack there?

Jack is there because he's got issues to resolve and Ben wants his back fixed. Also Jack is their leader..it wouldnt make sense to take the othe 2 and not Jack..

Also, im not saying that Ben is playing the role of Warden..just that Kate and co cant really complain about being in a cage because thats hwere they would be in the real world..thats where they belong.

But anyway, if he's taking on the role of official lawkeeper in his society, and bearing in mind that his captives are unwilling, forced members of that society who've been told to keep away but offered no help in doing anything of the sort, he kind of needs to tell them what he's up to and put them on trial, and then quit holding them in tortuous conditions. They're not signed-up citizens and have not voted for Ben's regime. This is the WILD, Korevo!* Better still though, if he really has links to the outside world, Ben should make a citizen's arrest on those people and hold them decently and safely if he really believes them a threat until they can be repatriated and tried fairly and properly. And he should hand himself over as well, natch, the abusive fiend. But as I say, I don't see how it's relevant when Ben's not admitted it as a motive... and, unless there's something incredibly out of character in an upcoming flashback, it's certainly not relevant to Jack.

Yes, this is the WIld ..trouble is it takes smarts to survive the wild and to ensure that you have some element of control over it. Ben has that. And the god news is that he doesnt disprespect the wild like our lot. Ben has not need to hand himself over..hes probvably saving the world. We need him. It's a thankless task but the world needs him. imo.

And you;re right, Kate hasnt been offered freedom - she's been given it (more of it) and she's since been ablle to stop running - tell me, what is more free than that..to break the habit of a lifetime..is THAT not freedom? is that not thanks to ben? As for fishbiscuits, well beggers cant be choosers..and noone has forced them to much them..Sawyer chose to eat like an animal..im sure Jules has got more of her muffins on supply, but obsviously Skate prefer animal chow

Okay, well, obviously that last bit's a joke. They're eating what they're given.

Yeah..hard life having to eat burgers & chips, sweet strawberries, muffins and drink coffee isnt it

And just because being kidnapped and held against your will and mistreated and all that enables you to perversely overcome some internal maggot in your head, that doesn't make the kidnapping altruistic or reasonable. It's up to Kate, Sawyer and Jack to decide whether or not they want to surmount their issues, not Ben. I wouldn't actually be terribly proud of myself if I did that to some poor lug on the street who inadvertantly worked through some personal problems while in captivity, nor would I expect said lug to treat me with anything but utter contempt. And of course they'd be very lucky to escape that kind of treatment without a raft of shiny new issues in place of their old ones. You think their ability to trust's going to survive this encounter? And hasn't Jack turned into a man with murder on his mind since his captivity began? Great job there, Ben.

But i feel were confusing the two environments again - in our world (ie civilisation) of course, that may not be the best thing to do..but some people need saving in certain situations (ie the island)..and i beleive that Ben should at least be given the chance to save these people. Afterall, weve already seen some positive reuslts. I cant tell you how many people ive read/heard saying that they now appreciate Sawyer and Kate more thn ever (not me mind)..surely this says it all..surely this tells us that its because of Ben and him rebirthing them! And i fail to see how Ben has turned Jack int a maniac - isnt this the same Jack who kicked his fathers butt, who obsessively stalked his ex wife, who tortured Sawyer, who didnt treat Locke after Shannon shot him, who refused Sawyer the medication he needed for him arm unless he gave him the case.. Is THIS the same Jack were speaking about here? How we forget..... i think Jack has always been this way. And hey, it's his freewill right?

Would you REALLY tell him to stick it if you were in Kates position and he offered you a chance to one day go home? I wouldnt (if i really wanted to get off the island)..i would jump at the chance and i think most people would.

I wouldn't want him to think that anything could excuse or justify his behaviour to me, so no, I wouldn't. But if Jack and co do accept his offer, I sincerely hope they don't then feel they owe the man anything but total contempt. I certainly hope they wouldn't feel themselves in his debt, because a good man would surely not be so uncharitable as to offer freedom under strict conditions and only after several weeks of mental and physical abuse.

But are you saying that because you wouldnt want him to think hes helped you in some way and thus want to take some dignified stance? If thats the case then this might be different from what you'd really do if he'd offered route 325..

Kate was kidnapped, but its a small price to pay really. It's not like she's been brutalised by the Others..she lived the life of riley up in that cage..she even gets preferential treatment.

You have a very... unfamiliar notion of what constitues the life of Riley. I'd be obliged if you'd go back and read my list of things that Kate's obliged to put up with in her current situation, and see if you truly consider them in some sense desirable or even preferential to freedom, because I consider them upsetting and abusive.

Erm, what Kates put up with? What you mean being asked to wear a dress whilst digging the field? Boo-hoo..poor her..she lost her dignity a long time ago and anyway, its nothing Sawyer hadnt seen before.

Kates received many luxaries and in light of the situation and the rut she was in pre-Ben, i think she should be grateful that she's got such an opportunity..plus she managed to be with Sawyer..so im sure shes satisfied right now.

Actually i think Sawyer and Kate have come to like the cages..if they REALLY didnt want to be there then they wouldve ran when they had the chance..seperate island or not, Sawyer (imo) would most certainly have ran and tried some form of escape (isnt he a con man?) if he really wanted to get the hell outta Alcatraz..same goes for Kate. The thing is, they've come around to Bens way..they realise that the man has given them an opportunity and whether they want to admit it or not, Ben rocks * And the fact that they didnt run, proves (imo) that what Ben is doing is not 'wrong', in light of the abnormal circumstances - remember, this island is not in the civilised world..different rules apply and Ben hasnt been nasty or vile like many (for some reason) suggest. I think that people think of the word 'Other' and instantly associate it with bad things * Yet what has Ben done 'truely' wrong? He's treated Kate and the rest with respect, consideration and care. imo

Beg pardon? They didn't run because of, in Kate's case, a sense of loyalty

sorry..did you just put the words 'Kate' and 'loyalty' in the same sentence :P

to and fear for the men she would be leaving behind and in Sawyer's case because he believes it's utterly futile, not because they wanted to be there or because they think Ben's doing them a favour ( ). What indications have you seen from either of them that, if given the choice between staying in the cages and being released, all three of them, to the other island, they'd choose the former? Anyway, we don't know yet what they're going to do - tonight we'll find out whether or not they run. If they do run, will that make Ben wrong?

But arent these people cons? dont they run because thats what they do even when theres no hope for escape??? Well then, one would assume that regardless of how futile it would seem, they would still take thier chances and run if they 'really' wanted to. As you or EPU said, theyre both fairly smart (or devious)..and theres no way they wouldnt take thier chances and leg it if they really really wanted to. I just think that theyre coming around to Bensim.

Yes, we shall see..who knows what will happen, im purely suggesting that they were coming round to the idea of Benism. No, if they run it would be because the situation has changed..Ben still needed to work on them..their rebirth isnt complete, so if they run now it has nothing to do with them not coming round to Bensim..it's simply because then the dynamic wouldve changed. The still needed to be kept in this caged environment for them to face themselves and further come around to Benism.

Jacks changed all that, imo as now he's put the losties back on top..irrespective of whether Kate/Sawyer run or not

[Murgatroyd]

Jack is there because he's got issues to resolve and Ben wants his back fixed. Also Jack is their leader..it wouldnt make sense to take the othe 2 and not Jack..

I asked why Jack was there if, as you suggested, the point of the trio's incarceration is to confine and punish dangerous criminals. Ben wanting to fix his back and to play counsellor on an unwilling subject are not altruistic reasons.

Also, im not saying that Ben is playing the role of Warden..just that Kate and co cant really complain about being in a cage because thats hwere they would be in the real world..thats where they belong.

I gather US jails aren't, on the whole, much to write home about, but I trust they feed prisoners more than fish biscuits and peanuts and give them mattresses to sleep on; that heavy manual labour, death threats, mock executions and beatings are not part of the regular programme; and that they charge and try them prior to confining them, making it clear why they're there and how long they can expect to stay there. So no, in comparison to where they justifiably should be back in the real world, they can complain.